Foreigners can lead by example

[sandman67]

But top and bottom is common sense in bucket loads.

Yaaaayy Mags!!!!! Thank god Im not alone in thinking that.

Thing is Spitfire has a point. The education system here is to blame..... learning by rote means kids grow up with sod all powers of deduction and reasoning. That means obvious stuff to us is a mystery to most Thai business owners.

Here are examples:

HH Events...... for a start off when these are on advertise them around town. In English at least, as well as German and French....and ask a ex pat to do the script then it comes out intelligible and not nonsense.

Restaurant menus....same same....sod it get me a beer and I will re-translate the "proiled egg" and "blak pappear crab" for you.....and as for "crap fried rice".......

The Cinema..... this one has been flogged to death in other threads.

my most recent is a heated discussion with Mrs S about her bar:

6 customers in a week complain about the same old crappy thai dance music. I bring this up with her, and explain that when the bar girls start buying beers then they get to choose the music. Girls wont dance to farang music.....I counter that as the girls are employees they do as they are told or sod off and work somewhere else.

She says when farangs ask she changes the music. I explain that they shouldnt have to ask, and that 6 complaints is 6 too many.

I also point out that people walking past may be walking past because they dont like the music. One of the complainants says the same....his mates walked past two times just for that reason.

She says they can ask to change it when they come in....we explain they wont come in because the music is crap...she says they can ask when they come in.....

and so on and so on.....

then try "cheap beers / 2 for 1 during happy hour in high season", a bar needs a name sign outside it that people can actually see, and the fact that having a TV with no sports channels is pointless...

Head meets wall.

[Jaime]

As far as saying that the 'Asian' way of business is inferior to the western business thinking as a whole, take a look at the global markets at the moment and decide that for yourself based on facts and figures which is better.

The Western markets are dropping in free fall...and they are supposed to learn from us???

Ummmm.... I've been watching the financial news intently and along with the western markets, the Asian markets have taken a pummelling! The worldwide financial system is so tightly interwoven that none of the markets are immune from the cataclysm that is upon us.

[Vital Spark]

I think that the title of this is 'Foreigners can lead by example' - nice idea.

I've been working here for 11 years and have learnt a lot from some really switched-on Thais (who've studied abroad).

I now try to pass on some of my knowledge to other Thai colleagues who are new to the job (just like I was back then) but find that they really don't want to listen. Any kind of advice is looked upon as some kind of threat to their position, and any criticism is certainly not accepted. Hey, I don't know it all, but some kind of compromise or answer to the question 'Why?' would be a refreshing change...

Ho hum - go with the flow (with gritted teeth).

VS

[cozza]

Jaime,

You are 100% correct and I agree completely, no market is safe with globalisation, but where did this all start? Simple, USA.

USA are still the most influential and largest market on the planet, everyone else follows suit, except maybe China. Also, London is the largest foreign money exchange on the planet.

[cozza]

Vital Spark,

I am always trying to talk to my wife about things ie, giving advice that I believe I have pretty good knowledge on. She never seems interested and it goes in one ear and out the other. One day I stopped her and asked her "do you think I don't know what I am talking about, am I wrong?"

She replied, "I really don't know."

Now, my wife is no brain surgeon, but she did go to a good school in Petchburi and has studied finance here in Australia and gotten 100% for her marks.

I find it interesting that most people seem to put it down to Thai's not wanting to learn and that face value is more important than improving knowledge. I have always believed that it was just not understanding, but trying to and sometimes getting it wrong.

Thai's to me are like jack of all trades but masters at none. I know this is a stereotype, just my opinion.

[BaaBaa.]

I'm sure its a familiar story to many on here Cozza.

[margaretcarnes]

Sandmans points - especially about running bar businesses - are so true. It IS impossible to persuade staff that music etc should be right in order to attract customers. How many times have we heard the 'oh we change when customer ask'? Likewise Thai TV.
To be honest I think this is less to do with education, and more of a 'we are here all the time, so we play what WE like' attitude.
But I do remember Willo questioning the dragon on her proposed bar food menu and pricing. He carefully explained the cost of ingredients and fuel, the wastage, the potential sales etc, and the costing, only to be told 'You stupid - what you know?' True, some of this type of knowledge comes via education, but most of it is down to experience and - as before - common sense. Which really is'nt much different to the West. School gives us the basics. Working life expands and builds on those foundations.
The menu miss- spellings are more understandable because English is, after all, a difficult language. What is annoying is the apparent lack of desire to get it right. We are back to 'loss of face'. To ask for help just isn't done. Anyone remember the beautiful carved wood sign over the arrivals corridor at the old airport? 'Welcome to the Land of Smile'
I'm surprised that VS encounters the same attitude though with Thai colleagues. At that level, and with younger Thai people, you might expect to see some gradual change of attitudes. Ho Hum indeed!

[clive]

I sometimes worry about some of the HHAD readers, is HH some magical place full of cotton wool and fluffy white clouds?
If you put up the money for a business and therefore have a financial interest then you have the right to walk in and change that business if you are not happy with it! If they continue to revert back to their old ways then keep changing it. If you have money invested in a business then you should be protecting that investment. It does not matter whether it is in Europe, Thailand or Tim buck two, it is all the same. If you invested and have no control, soppy you, you do not call that an investment, it is a GIFT. You know, a bit like when you give a Thai person a loan! Same Same! If you have staff who will not learn by example or explanation and are stubborn in their ways (in Thailand?) then guess what the problem is! The staff! Show them the door. Ah! You say, but it is my wife’s family, answer? They can use the same door! You will have to give them one month’s money but you probably pay them a pittance anyway so no big deal!
My wife takes care of me and allows me to do as I please! Lucky you, so you put up with the situation, then you must be happy with it, so play zippy! Lips together and keep them that way.
Misspelling! Aggravating when it is the Tessabaan on the new flat screen or the big signs for Melly Xmas & Nappy New Year, but come on, the me an you’s? Adds a bit of fun to life. Far rather be reading a miss-spelt menu than the current front pages! Everyone accepts that this is Thailand and English is not their first language, so their writing probably will contain some mistakes, so do a lot of the ones that come from Farangh writers whose first language is English, but at least they have tried and yes we know, they can be very trying! But have you tried to talk to them and offer to correct the spelling? I doubt it! Or maybe you are not quite sure of the correct spelling either? Oh and of course you are fully literate in Thai ?
At the end of the day there are 3 things you can do about everything in life: first you can just accept it as so many Farangh who live here do, nothing wrong with that provided you don’t complain about your situation in PUBLIC, bend your mates ears in a bar like I do by all means! (You may end up Billy no mates though, but it is cheap!). Secondly you can just walk away, (but then you will end up with nought) nothing wrong with that either but the same about PUBLIC winging applies. The third is the hardest and most rewarding of all! Do something positive about it, try to help them see the error of their ways if you think they are wrong, but do look at it from both sides first, change some or all of the players by all means, change what you have to, just try! Remember! We all had to learn from someone! Or did you? Maybe you are PERFICK!
Every day here I get frustrated with someone, and you better believe it is 50/50 Thai and Farangh but also every day I get to see a cabaret, it is the cabarets I remember!
The original topic was foreigners can lead by example, well with a bit of will power and effort and the right student they can. It is up to you whether you want to be part of that learning curve!

[Wanderlust]

clive,
You make some valid points, but have you implemented your solution to the problem with bar staff (family or not)? I have never owned or run a bar, but from observation and what I have been told just sacking the offenders is both not the solution nor easy to do because of the repercussions on the other staff and/or family, in particular one's wife if that is the scenario. Many Thais also gossip a lot (in particular bar girls), and before long it would be nigh on impossible to get ANY staff to operate the business, because a simple firing could become anything from domestic violence to drug dealing to 'the farang has AIDS'. The key thing as far as bar staff goes here, from what i can gather, is that there will always be a mamasan, even if your bar is not taking bar fines for the girls; the mamasan will set the example, so it is vital that she understands and implements the policies you want followed by the others, because they will listen to and copy her. Other bar owners please correct me if I am wrong on any of this, but I think clive's approach would not work here.

[Nereus]

Cannot find where Clive mentioned a bar, must have missed that bit?

But in my experience it is very difficult to instruct Thais in anything, which again goes back to the education "system", in as much that it is completely foreign to them to accept anything outside the box that they have grown up in. If you can get around that I have found that they learn very quickly. (most of them, anyway!)

[clive]

To be honest, I did not mention any particular type of business and I would not want to own a bar or invest money in a bar. I also have heard stories of landlords and the staff.

I did however say that you need the right student!!! read what you like into that.

But come to think of it, I guess I have invested large sums in some bars here!

I also think Wanderlust that it would be better to use the word Bar Find although I agree Bar Fine is probably more accurate!!!!!!

I think it is the view when you wake up in the morning that determines which word you use!!!!!!!!

However, of course I do not speak with the benefit of a great deal of experience!!!!!!

Or of course was that just some simple case of mis-spelling?

555

[Jaime]

Jaime,

You are 100% correct and I agree completely, no market is safe with globalisation, but where did this all start? Simple, USA.

USA are still the most influential and largest market on the planet, everyone else follows suit, except maybe China. Also, London is the largest foreign money exchange on the planet.

But what you asked readers to do in your original post was to compare the western and Asian markets and decide which was better. On that basis I can't agree with your inference that Asian markets are any better or are more robust, as they are taking a battering like all the rest.

Or am I misreading your post and did you mean something else?

[Wanderlust]

clive,
I was aware that you had not specifically mentioned bars, but your post came after a number who did, and seemed to be in response to theirs; however the question I asked is equally valid in any business, and to repeat it slightly reworded, have you tried to implement your ideas as posted to resolve problems with staff in Thailand? If you have I am sure many on here would be interested in the results. I don't believe that approach would find much success, for the reasons i already gave, but am keen to know if I am right.

[sandman67]

THUNK....ouch......THUNK.....ouch.....

ah sorry....will take a break for a while

sacking staff doesnt work for several reasons

1) The other staff dont get the connection and just think you are a bad person;
2) The sacked person then slags you off, meaning getting new staff is a bigger pain (as WL pointed out)
3) The replacements are probably equally as bad and have the same attitudes and habits, so you are still at square 1

the thing that seems to work with Mrs S's lot is bribery...sort of..... no do what I say, no two bottles of whisky a week.

Now....where was I.... ah yes

THUNK....ouch......THUNK.....ouch

[Wanderlust]

sandman,
I think this is what you are looking for...