Injury Pensions in UK and incapacity benefits

[Wanderlust]

From mags post it does actually sound as if they have tried to simplify the system, but the problem with that is that it often means more people miss out on something they should, morally, be getting, while sometimes allowing people who shouldn't in. I was always under the impression that two things hold true as regards the tax and benefits system in the UK; one is that a very large amount of benefits go unclaimed, and the other is that the amount of tax evasion completely dwarfs the amount of benefit fraud or scrounging. Does anyone actually know if this is still the case, and if it is, surely it would be more cost effective to employ more civil servants/police to recover the tax than for those to repeatedly check that benefit claims are valid? While the idea of benefit fraud is reprehensible on an individual basis, I think we should get more annoyed by those refusing to pay in like everyone else does.

[caller]

WL, tax evasion is still a massive problem, but the flip side for the smaller folk, cash in hand work etc is that they spend what they earn, so VAT is collected, the companies they buy from pay tax and so on. At the top level its a multi-million industry that succesive Govts seem scared of.

Benefit fraud is also still a massive problem though and not helped by the new tax credits which are administered by HMRC who have no experience in doing so. The losses caused by incompetence are staggering and they have next to no operation in place to detect fraud.

Mags will probably confirm that having so many organisations to deal with causes difficulties and poor communication makes for errors, with the DWP, HMRC and local authorities all in the loop. Income Support will disappear in due course and all benefits bar others talked about here and Housing Benefit will be paid by way of credits, linked to employment. Thats the theory anyway.

By the way guys, benefit and tax credit frauds are classless. Don't assume its just those from the estates that do it. It occurs across all strata of society and age groups.

[Governor]

Who in Hua Hin got paid the Winter Fuel Allowance?

[margaretcarnes]

Fully agree with Caller there - the involvement of HRMC in administering benefits must go down as one of the biggest ever Welfare mistakes.
I don't know how much has been written off as a result of errors, or how much actual tax is lost through tax fraud either.
The problem though with hidden savings due to unclaimed benefits is they are just that. Hidden. Largely unquantifiable. The Pensions Service do their best to identify unclaimed stuff, but are only a small part of the system, and deal only with over 60's.
Can I just clarify one point though on the new Employment and Support Allowance. It hasn't necessarily excluded some people from claiming. The issue of 'insufficient contributions' and alternative of Income Support also applied to the old Incapacity Benefit, and applies to Jobseekers Allowance as well.
Just to throw in another spanner - some benefits are also taxable. Such as the Industrial Injuries Disability Benefit which I explained earlier. This tends to discourage some people from claiming.

[nanyang]

[quote="margaretcarnes"]The medical is not the same as for the old Incapacity Benefit (IB) and sorry Nanyang - the 15 points and the descriptors are no longer the same.quote]

Interesting, as my information was taken from here:

http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/jcp/ste ... 015887.pdf

Clearly at variance with your statement -is it any wonder people find it difficult to claim.

[Colinbs]

Many thanks for all the comments especially from Mags. The reason I asked was because a friend had told me that a 73 year man who had been living in Chang Mai for 20 years was selling up. I had spoken to a couple of friends in the UK. one who incidentally lost a leg in Thailand, he told me he nad not heard anything about it.

[margaretcarnes]

Hi Nanyang - yes that's very confusing! There's no date on that Jobcentre link as far as I can see, and it certainly shows the old Incapacity Benefit scoring system. I'm now starting to see clients who have been tested under new rules whose results bear absolutely no resemblance to the IB system at all.
In fact I need to go through the new ESA regulations again with a colleague, because we realised yesterday that the guidance issued to us doesn't seem comprehensive either. The Work Capability Assessment itself though shouldn't put people off claiming if they need to, and if they refuse the WCA benefits would be stopped... so its a no win situation.

Colinbs (the OP) reason for posting the question in the first place is also a puzzle - a 73 year old man returning to the UK? The chap won't need, or be able, to claim ESA anyway, as he is over pension age.
Always useful to go over these changes now and then to clear confusion though. Especially as there will always be Brits returning home, often on health grounds. As always people are welcome to pm me with individual concerns.

[Colinbs]

Nothing seems simple any more and why do government departments always seem to make life difficult. I will try and find out from my friend what the letter he received actually said. I beleived he was pensioned off early through ill health from one of the services and actually receives a pension and some form of government benefit. I was told it was invalidity as he was unable to work through ill health. Could it be some form of benifit that was in place some 20years ago and has since changed its name but he is still entitled to it.

[Condoking]

63 million sterling is the estimated amount defrauded by disability claimants according to auntie Beeb http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8015229.stm.

[margaretcarnes]

Yes Colinbs - your guy could be getting the old Invalidity Benefit under transitional rules. Invalidity Benefit was replaced by Incapacity Benefit in 1995 and I quote 'some people who were getting Invalidity Benefit immediately before IB was introduced, including some who qulified on the basis of industrial injury, are still protected by transitional rules and receive transitional long term IB'
(Source - Child Poverty Action Group handbook.)
This handbook is the advisors bible and I'm quoting from last years book. The fact that IB itself has now been replaced by another benefit won't affect earlier transitional rules. But I need to refer back to the 2006 handbook for more detail and will do that next week.
It would help to explain the age issue though. If he IS covered in this way he would have been about 59 at the time of the transition. Rules would have been more generous then. For example, it is likely he would have got full state pension and possibly other benefits on top of the IVB/IB, whereas now that is no longer possible. He may also continue to get the benefit with no restriction on time, as there was with IB which was limited to 5 years after state pension age.
Either way, at 73 he won't be subject to a medical now if he returns to the UK, and may in fact be entitled to an extra benefit as well (Attendance Allowance.) So he shouldn't worry, but I will do more research.

[Khundon1975]

I see on the BBC news yesterday, that the government are trying to crack down on the benefit fraudsters in Spain and have set up an office there to try to track them down.

Best of luck to them. Maybe they will take a long hard look at those on benefits that are living in Thailand (the dirty vest brigade in Pattaya) but I'm not holding my breath.

[miked]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... hrift.html

every day that Gordon Brown remains as P.M. causes more damage to the U.K. economy. all Labour governments seem to let public spending get out of control. Cameron will cut deep and the economy will recover, interest will rise and so will the pound. but Brown has to go.
miked

[margaretcarnes]

Interesting view Miked. It was in fact the last Tory government which juggled unemployment figures by sweeping a lot of people under the carpet and onto Incapacity Benefit. And by implementing YOP/YTS and Community Programme, which also disguised the true scale of the problem.
All history of course, and it doesn't alter the fact that whichever party is in power, we are in the grip of a recession which will take a long time to recover from, if at all. When small companies go under the market gaps are filled by the multinationals and Big Boys. And those same large companies are able to cut costs by virtue of economies of scale.
They are unlikely to need proportionately more staff to cope with increased demand for their products. As a result a lot of people recently made redundant will probably never work again. Where for example J Bloggs and Co needed 2 staff to do a job, Mega Global Inc will need only one.
Whether those now redundant people go on sick or just claim Jobseeking benefits is largely irrelevant. There is still a cost to the State to be borne by whichever government is in power.
What I find interesting though is the subtle change in wording by Cameron from 'Welfare to work' to 'Work for Welfare.'
All very emotive and guaranteed to catch the traditional Tory voters attention. But doesn't alter the fact that it is an employers market. They can pick and chose from hundreds of applicants for one job. Leaving some very well qualified and experienced people who may have fallen ill for say 3 months on the scrap heap.