Royal Engineers in Thailand

[PeteC]

Here's a little known website, and a little known fact that your troops were here back in the 60's building a SEATO airfield up in Issan. Pete

http://www.creopcrown.co.uk/

[Khundon1975]

prcscct

I met a chap many years ago whilst visiting one of our factories, who knowing my wife was Thai, showed me a series of panoramic pictures of this site which he had taken.

He, along with a load of other service personnel were dumped in the middle of nowhere, with some bulldozers and basically told to build an airstrip.

He was there for around 6 months and was bored out of his tree.

He explained that "the rumour on the strip (no pun intended) was it was intended for secret use by the USA"

He seemed to think the strip was used by that sweating liar Nixon to conduct his secret bombing war in Cambodia but I'm not sure on that one, maybe someone on the forum has more knowledge on that subject.

[Nereus]

prcscct
He explained that "the rumour on the strip (no pun intended) was it was intended for secret use by the USA"

He seemed to think the strip was used by that sweating liar Nixon to conduct his secret bombing war in Cambodia but I'm not sure on that one, maybe someone on the forum has more knowledge on that subject.

It may well have been either used, or intended, for that purpose, but Nixon cannot be blamed for its existence, as he was not elected President until 1968.

[PeteC]

prcscct

I met a chap many years ago whilst visiting one of our factories, who knowing my wife was Thai, showed me a series of panoramic pictures of this site which he had taken.

He, along with a load of other service personnel were dumped in the middle of nowhere, with some bulldozers and basically told to build an airstrip.

He was there for around 6 months and was bored out of his tree.

He explained that "the rumour on the strip (no pun intended) was it was intended for secret use by the USA"

He seemed to think the strip was used by that sweating liar Nixon to conduct his secret bombing war in Cambodia but I'm not sure on that one, maybe someone on the forum has more knowledge on that subject.

I've never heard anything from Veterans of that era that the US used that base. Most covert stuff went out of NKP and Ubon. I'm not sure if it's still there, perhaps just overgrown jungle now.

Also, nothing secret here back then about bombing the Ho Chi Minh trail in Cambodia. Just secret in other places I guess. Pete

[STEVE G]

I never expected that the British Army was in Thailand at that time.
I found this on the Royal Engineers museum site which explains a little bit about why they were there:


Operation Crown - Thailand - 1963-68

As a signatory of South East Asia Treaty Organization (SEATO) Britain had an obligation to assist Allies in the Far East. In the early 1960's the Americans (also signatories of SEATO) were becoming increasingly embroiled in preventing the march of Communism in Laos and Vietnam and requested that Britain assist in their crusade.

In February 1963 it was proposed that Britain construct an airfield at Loeng Nok Tha, near Mukdahan in Thailand as part of the American's Special Logistic Aid to Thailand (SLAT). The proposal was accepted and given the code name Operation Crown.

The Engineer units involved in the project were:

11 Independent Field Squadron RE
59 Field Squadron RE
Detachment 54 Corps Field Park Squadron RE
Detachment 84 Survey Squadron RE
Detachment 302 Postal Unit RE

A field troop from the Royal Australian Engineers and detachment from the Royal New Zealand Engineers were also involved.
The airfield with its 5,000ft long air strip, control-tower, airfield fencing and lighting was completed in time for an official opening ceremony on 17 June 1965, but work continued on improving the landing strips long after the ceremony.
After the airfield was completed a second project, to build a road north west from Loeng Nok Tha to a village (Ban Khok Klang), was started in December 1966 by 34 Field Squadron RE, who were relieved by 59 Field Squadron RE in August 1967, who in turn were relieved by 11 Field Squadron RE. The road was completed in April 1968 by a composite workforce that included:
· 54 (FARELF) Support Squadron RE
· 51 (Airfields) Squadron RE - one troop
· 59 Field Squadron RE - one troop
A Royal Engineers' Forces Post Office atttached to the British Embassy remained in Bangkok after the last of the Royal Engineers involved in Operation Crown departed Thailand in 1968.


http://www.remuseum.org.uk/corpshistory ... part19.htm

[Khundon1975]

prcscct
He explained that "the rumour on the strip (no pun intended) was it was intended for secret use by the USA"

He seemed to think the strip was used by that sweating liar Nixon to conduct his secret bombing war in Cambodia but I'm not sure on that one, maybe someone on the forum has more knowledge on that subject.

It may well have been either used, or intended, for that purpose, but Nixon cannot be blamed for its existence, as he was not elected President until 1968.

Nereus

I had already done the maths on that issue Nereus but wondered if anyone knew whether it was used for certain clandestine bombing runs over the border sanctioned by Nixon.

prcscct

Thanks for the info, yes it was general knowledge in Thailand, the US just forgot to tell the rest of the World they were carrying out an illegal war in Cambodia, all be it from the air.

I guess a lot of innocent Cambodians died, thanks to the American governments deceit in not letting the US citizens know what they were doing in their name. Had they known, they may well have taken their government to task at the time.

As for operation SLAT, (an American support logistics operation) was it not strange that the British (a signatory to SEATO) were asked to build an airport for use by the US, in their crusade against communists in Laos and Vietnam.
Perhaps an early example of the UK being led by the nose by the US, in order for the war in Vietnam to be given some sort of respectability.

[PeteC]

KD, please don't get me going this evening.

1) What does SLAT Mean? "American's Special Logistic Aid to Thailand" The key word being THAILAND. No US bombing, or any other type of attack mission took place from there, and I'm in a position to know. Thailand was in the midst of heavy communist infiltration in that entire area during that time. If anything, they welcomed the facility to counter that.

2) Cambodia bombing was restricted to the corridor along the south Vietnam border that was being used as a supply route from the north. I'm damn glad Nixon kept it secret so it could proceed. It saved many South Vietnamese and Allied lives. Do you really think the VC and NVA were kind to the Cambodian natives in their way as they thrashed their way through the jungle building their supply route? By the time bombing started, the locals were long gone. But I know, we shouldn't have been there to start with, it was just so, so, so wrong. Pete

[STEVE G]

After searching around on the net, I’m pretty sure that the base was used as a logistic base exactly as described.
The reason I say that is if it wasn’t you would find a lot of references to it as there isn’t much about any clandestine operations during the Vietnam war that are still secret.
You can find endless books and websites that will tell you everything you could possibly want to know about air missions around SEA during that period.

[Khundon1975]

KD, please don't get me going this evening.

1) What does SLAT Mean? "American's Special Logistic Aid to Thailand" The key word being THAILAND. No US bombing, or any other type of attack mission took place from there, and I'm in a position to know. Thailand was in the midst of heavy communist infiltration in that entire area during that time. If anything, they welcomed the facility to counter that.

2) Cambodia bombing was restricted to the corridor along the south Vietnam border that was being used as a supply route from the north. I'm damn glad Nixon kept it secret so it could proceed. It saved many South Vietnamese and Allied lives. Do you really think the VC and NVA were kind to the Cambodian natives in their way as they thrashed their way through the jungle building their supply route? By the time bombing started, the locals were long gone. But I know, we shouldn't have been there to start with, it was just so, so, so wrong. Pete

prcscct

Then I wonder, why did the US not use existing runways and infrastructure in Thailand for their aid support programme? It does seem strange and why get the British to build it? after all, the Americans certainly had the manpower and resources to build it themselves.

The whole Communist thing had got out of hand, both SE Asia and in American politics and I doubt that the American people would have supported such an escalation of hostilities in another country.
Maybe by getting the Brits to build the airstrip, the US government could say that this was not an escalation of the war effort in Vietnam.


The term, "special logistic aid" can be used to cover a multitude of things, are you saying that no arms or war materials were supplied via this airstrip?

Of course as you say the VC and the NVA were no angels but they were fighting a vastly superior armed force, who had invaded their country but then again the US army did some terrible things in Vietnam as well although I'm not arguing about that.

My point was, that by carrying out bombing raids there, without declaring war against Cambodia or informing the American people, was wrong, full stop.

I know that if the UK government bombs another country I want to be informed, especially if we are not at war with that country. I certainly do not want to be kept in the dark, after all one could argue that foreign troops should not have been there in the first place.

We have exactly that problem with Iraq at the moment but at least the government had the decency to inform the electorate here.

An interesting subject and I hope I have not got you going this evening.


Edit for typo.

[hhfarang]

I know that if the UK government bombs another country I want to be informed

KhunDon,

Are you certain that you have been? I'm pretty sure that the UK government, not to mention MI(you pick the number) have done a lot of secretive things in the last 50 years without calling you up and letting you know first...

[Khundon1975]

I know that if the UK government bombs another country I want to be informed

KhunDon,

Are you certain that you have been? I'm pretty sure that the UK government, not to mention MI(you pick the number) have done a lot of secretive things in the last 50 years without calling you up and letting you know first...

hhfarang

I have no doubt that they (UK government) have done many things that I am not aware of but as dropping bombs from a plane tends to get noticed, I'm sure we here in the UK would have heard of it.

After all the "extraordinary rendition" flights which used UK airports were denied by our government, until someone proved they had actually taken place, though the US said the flights did not actually contain any prisoners. Yeah right.

[STEVE G]

I found this on another site:

Hello ,

We discussed the building of and uses of Leong Nok Tha Airfield last August. My contribution is that I had a slide of the front gate with the brass plaque. The inscription is copied below. Others on the TLCB lists have stated the airfield was largely unused after 1969. It was an emergency airstrip of course for any aircraft that couldn't make it to a manned airfield. I don't know how many Thai or Lao aircraft made an emergency landing.

I was serving in late 1973 at Phu Mu Signal Site as the site commander. The war was winding down so the Army signal troops were replaced by Philco-Ford American contractors. As a buck sergeant (E-5) I reported directly to Intel and Security of U.S. Army Strategic Command - Thailand (USASTRATCOM-T) in Bangkok. I called in a status report by field phone relayed through a half dozen telephone switchboards.

Phu Mu site was about 20 SSW of Mukdahan. Mukdahan on the Thailand side of the Mekong River was situated across from Savannakhet, Laos.

Once a month a medic came up from Bangkok to test our water supply, look over our hooch living conditions, and in general inquire about our health. Well, he arrived on a two-engine (Army U-21) klong hopper that made the circuit
around Thailand. We used Leong Nok Tha Airfield. About an hour before the plane came in we would drive the 50 miles to the airfield. Then we would drive our jeep up and down the runway to get the boy and their water buffalos out of the ditches and a safe distance from the runway. The pilot would buzz the strip two or three times to insure a "safe" landing. I have other slides of the control tower leaning at an angle on its steel strut legs.

In brotherhood, Terry Colvin
http://ubvet.tripod.com/phumu/id7.html

[PeteC]

Then I wonder, why did the US not use existing runways and infrastructure in Thailand for their aid support programme? It does seem strange and why get the British to build it? after all, the Americans certainly had the manpower and resources to build it themselves.

The whole Communist thing had got out of hand, both SE Asia and in American politics and I doubt that the American people would have supported such an escalation of hostilities in another country.
Maybe by getting the Brits to build the airstrip, the US government could say that this was not an escalation of the war effort in Vietnam.


The term, "special logistic aid" can be used to cover a multitude of things, are you saying that no arms or war materials were supplied via this airstrip?

Of course as you say the VC and the NVA were no angels but they were fighting a vastly superior armed force, who had invaded their country but then again the US army did some terrible things in Vietnam as well although I'm not arguing about that.

My point was, that by carrying out bombing raids there, without declaring war against Cambodia or informing the American people, was wrong, full stop.

I know that if the UK government bombs another country I want to be informed, especially if we are not at war with that country. I certainly do not want to be kept in the dark, after all one could argue that foreign troops should not have been there in the first place.

We have exactly that problem with Iraq at the moment but at least the government had the decency to inform the electorate here.

An interesting subject and I hope I have not got you going this evening. Edit for typo.

No, I didn't read it until 0430 this morning so you gave me heartburn then. Really KD, there's a lot of speculation and opinion on your part that I have no answer for and I don't think anyone has.

My understanding of SEATO was that all members were tasked with projects and the above is what the British drew.

I think it's been established pretty well that the strip wasn't used that much or at all by anyone else but the Thai's. There's no indication anywhere that location had the facilities, equipment or personnel to support a military bombing operation with jet aircraft. You need a lot of stuff for something like that, which would even today be well talked about by people who worked over here then. There was no secret what bases Air American and other covert activities were going out of. In a nut shell, they went out of all the major bases, with emphasis on NKP and Ubon due to their locations.

Yes, it makes good theatre to think small aircraft in the dead of night smuggled kidnapped VN high officials back to that remote airstrip where they were waterboarded and all manner of nasty things done to them. Maybe that did happen, who knows.

Concerning Cambodia, I'll stick with my previous opinions. Announcing military action against something like what NV was doing in Cambodia would defeat the purpose. In turn sitting on the VN side and watching the NV thumb their noses at you from across the border wouldn't have been the best thing to do either. Long before any bombing the US had been sending Delta Force troops into Cambodia to try to disrupt supply lines, it wasn't enough. All of this right or wrong? Depends on one's thinking.

Anyway, let's all blame the French. It was them who screwed it all up. Read about Ho Chi Minh and his allegiance to the USA and American style democracy during WWII, and what happened when the French came out of the woodwork after the war and insisted upon getting all of their colonies back. If that had not happened, HCM would never had turned to communism, and the Vietnam War (wars) would never have happened.

FYI Steve, the man who wrote the article you referenced lives in HH and is possibly a member on here, I don't know.

Before I go get my coffee this morning I'll post a news article from 1953 showing how the world thought back then. It was provided by the same gentlemen referenced in the paragraph above, on another forum. Makes interesting reading. Pete

Monday, May. 04, 1953
>Black, White & Red Thais
>The spectacular drive of the Viet Minh Communist army through Laos last week
threatened to set off a chain reaction through Southeast Asia (see map). The
ethnic majority in this region is Thai (pronounced tie), an ancient racial group
distinct from both Chinese and Indians.
>
>There are White Thais (whose women wear mostly white), Black Thais (who wear
black), and, more recently, Red Thais (from the political colors they wear), who
have their own autonomous administration in southern Yunnan (Red China). But
Thais, of one color or another, inhabit Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Siam and
northern Burma. In Laos the Communists have already set up their own puppet
government (see above), but Communist propaganda speaks of "liberating" the Thai
people as a whole and establishing among them a "Free Asian Republic."
>
>The only real opposition the Communists have met so far has been from the
French. But with a large section of French Indo-China in their hands, the
Communists will be in a position to exert heavy pressure on non-French
neighboring countries where governments are weak and inexperienced.
>
>Siam, the monarchy of songwriting King Phumiphon Adundet, may be the
Communists' next objective. Siam's population (17 million) is largely Thai, and
the government is torn with dissension. On the Siamese side of the Laos border
there are already some 50,000 pro-Communist Chinese and Vietnamese rebels,
organized and trained by Chinese and Viet Minh agents. They sit astride the
traditional opium-smuggling routes, and are believed to have accumulated stocks
of modern arms. Field Marshal Phibun Songgram's border guards find it prudent
not to trouble them. Former Premier Pridhi Panomyong has long been under Red
Chinese tutelage in Peking.
>
>Cambodia (pop. 3,000,000) is one of the three Associated States of French
Indo-China; its King Norodom Sihanouk Varman, visiting New York a fortnight ago,
had a warning for the free world: unless the French give his people more
independence "within the next few months," there is real danger that they will
rebel against the present regime and become a part of the Communist-led Viet
Minh. Said he: "They do not want to die for the French."
>
>
>Burma, former British colony (pop. 16.8 million) which became an independent
republic in 1948, has no realistic control over its northeast regions, where it
has a long frontier with Red China and Laos. Here Burmese, Red Chinese and Li
Mi's Nationalist Chinese mix like the colors of a dangerous kaleidoscope. If
they can fight their way to the Mekong River at the border of Laos and Burma,
the Viet Minh Communist forces of Ho Chi Minh will be in a position to
strengthen the anti-government forces in Burma.

[hhfarang]

Siam, the monarchy of songwriting King Phumiphon Adundet, may be the Communists' next objective. Siam's population (17 million) is largely Thai, and the government is torn with dissension.

Some things never change...

[Khundon1975]

prcscc

Of course you are correct, it is just lot of speculation and opinion on my part, as I made clear in my first post on this subject. (highlighted below)

"He seemed to think the strip was used by that sweating liar Nixon to conduct his secret bombing war in Cambodia but I'm not sure on that one, maybe someone on the forum has more knowledge on that subject."

Several members, yourself included have posted information on this and I'm thankful for all your replies but they are what could respectively be called "second hand knowledge" and I was looking for anyone who may have actually been there during that period. The man I spoke to was and I was hoping to confirm what he said to me.

As to the Cambodia issue, we will have to agree to disagree on that one, as you will never convince me that it is right to bomb a country that you have not declared war on.
The Japanese did that at Pearl harbour remember and the US did not like that one bit.

Presidents Johnson and Nixon, when speaking to the American people
were claiming the moral high ground in this conflict about communism, whilst illegally bombing a neutral country. That cannot be right in anyone's book surely?

Yes lets blame the French they had a bad reputation in all this but they did bring great bread to Vietnam.

A bottle of Gaviscon is in the post to you.