My ACV Results

[darwinian]

Most of us who have qualifications in medical science have encountered tragic cases where patients have neglected to seek advice from experts and have died as a result of following the ideas of unqualified quacks.
Those who suggest the use of "alternative" medicines and treatment have a lot to answerr for.

[MrPlum]

Most of us who have qualifications in medical science have encountered tragic cases where patients have neglected to seek advice from experts and have died as a result of following the ideas of unqualified quacks.
Those who suggest the use of "alternative" medicines and treatment have a lot to answerr for.

I'm sure Harold Shipman's patients would be all for them.

They only have something to answer for if anyone is harmed. Are you aware of anyone who has been harmed?

Let me say in all seriousness that your concerns are a little exaggerated. If anyone dies as a result of any suggestion made on this board, the person making the suggestion could end up in jail. We are not in our home countries any more.

Both you and lindosfan1 seem to be seeing 'dangerous' when the reality is 'pretty harmless'.

There is nothing promulgated on here that can't be readily found online and as far as I'm aware all suggestions made include 'consult with your doctor'. Anyone who is taking existing medications absolutely MUST consult with their doctor.

Suggestions I have made or seen include exercise, relaxation, sunshine, breathing, diet, cleansing and perhaps some herbs. These programs are pumped out every week on British TV and are highly popular. The herbs are typically eaten by Thais every day. No-one gets locked up for being a Vegetarian, no-one gets locked up for being a Vegan. No-one gets locked up for doing a Detox. If you hadn't noticed Thailand is crawling with Detox Centres and Spas and you can go into Tesco and buy a Detox kit off the shelf.

You are both making mountains out of molehills.

Bring your concerns to the moderators. If it's a problem then I'm sure they will act.

[lindosfan1]

If there was no danger then we would have no concern, there is always a danger in any sort of medicine be it natural or through drugs or treatment.
Where the danger lies here is with the herbal medicines and persons promoting them in either by recomendation or advertising. this is what we are discussing.
This is why toxicologists are testing at this present time.
You unfortunately epitomise the problem, you stated the information is on line. That alone is dangerous. There is so much rubbish published on the internet you and me both know that we could find something to agree with our views no matter how extreme they may be.
Study is about the whole subject not about bits you pick up here and there. It is about learning and questioning even disagreeing wth the tutor.
Therefore we have someone here not properly trained using substances that could possibly cause damage. Do you not think that we have a right to be concerned.
I do recognise that your intentions are good but a little knowledge is dangerous so yes I will challenge you. Especially when you condemn outright trained members of the medical profession.

[MrPlum]

If there was no danger then we would have no concern, there is always a danger in any sort of medicine be it natural or through drugs or treatment.
Where the danger lies here is with the herbal medicines and persons promoting them in either by recomendation or advertising. this is what we are discussing.
This is why toxicologists are testing at this present time.
You unfortunately epitomise the problem, you stated the information is on line. That alone is dangerous. There is so much rubbish published on the internet you and me both know that we could find something to agree with our views no matter how extreme they may be.
Study is about the whole subject not about bits you pick up here and there. It is about learning and questioning even disagreeing wth the tutor.
Therefore we have someone here not properly trained using substances that could possibly cause damage. Do you not think that we have a right to be concerned.
I do recognise that your intentions are good but a little knowledge is dangerous so yes I will challenge you. Especially when you condemn outright trained members of the medical profession.

Why do you keep saying 'we'? For days now it has only been you and clearly you do not have support. You make charges of 'generalizing', 'extreme' views and use of information found on the internet, when you are doing the same. I have previously posted an alternative treatment made by a moderator that would alarm anyone. Far worse than anything I have mentioned. Yet on this you are silent.

You are neither a Doctor, nor an authority on your subject, yet you choose to be personally hostile. Your defence of the indefensible is not praiseworthy in my opinion. How you can cite 'several' incidents of harm, showing no proof, from the use of herbs, while ignoring tens of thousands of deaths from pharmaceuticals is a blatant double standard. Every time someone mentions a medication they are taking that is known to have severe side effects, why are you not highlighting it and checking with the individual concerned whether they have been made aware of the risks? Now that would be a service to the community. But you don't. Instead you write nonsense about vinegar which you have clearly not researched. If vinegar was dangerous where would people go for their pickled onions? Millions sprinkle it on their chips.

You and darwinian make broad brush statements about 'alternative medicine and 'quackery' without identifying specifically which aspects are dangerous.

We are not in the UK or Europe and if you had investigated the claims made in the article you posted you would have found the one person they found who might have died, did not reveal the medication she was supposed to have taken and experts could not identify it. They concluded she died from an herbal medication solely on the basis that according to them it couldn't have been anything else. You rely on 'reports' of harm without investigating whether the 'reports' were followed up and substantiated. You produce 'toxicologists are investigating' as if that's the end of the matter. If they are still investigating why have you already drawn your conclusions?

You seem totally unaware that thousands of herbs have been investigated thoroughly in other countries, where they are fully supported by the government. There are many research articles in the Indian and Thai literature if you know where to look. The only issue in my mind is whether herbal remedies interfere with medication you may have been prescribed with by a Doctor or create risk in theatre. The new publication will be useful.

Suggestions I make are only from sources I have researched. Ayurvedic herbs have been proven over hundreds, if not thousands of years and researched within the Indian Medical system and professional articles are available if you know where to look. Therapeutic fasting is mentioned even in the Bible and is used in several countries. When an animal gets sick. It stops eating. There is one person in Hua Hin who had a serious alcohol problem who is walking around absolutely transformed. He credits this with changing his lifestyle and attending Detox Spas. He looks in better shape than I do. I do not need a degree in Medicine to point this out to others,

You mention study as if I haven't done any. I have studied for years. I also have a lot of experience which I am happy to share with others. If you do not recognize that experience that is your choice. You can huff and you can puff but you aren't going to blow my house down. Because while you don't do the research. I do. I also test these things out for myself.

I agree that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing but equally a little knowledge may be a life saver. Focussing on the negative all the time is exactly what you are accusing me of doing. The knowledge is either true or false. It's simply knowledge. And there is a lot of medical literature online these days. Online Medical courses abound.

The reality is that many people are looking for safer alternatives and my knowledge and experience can be valuable in SAVING them from a lot of wasted time and possibly harmful remedies. You focus on how 'dangerous' I am, when others are expressing how helpful I am. I am not drawing people to 'the dark side' as you both seem to fear. Only offering possible alternatives where mainstream medicine does not have a satisfactory solution and where natural medicine might.

You denigrate something like EFT, which is not scientifically proven, yet millions are trying it. You provide an argument which states it's effects are produced by the power of 'suggestion' and the 'placebo effect'. When doctors do the same thing. Even if it was ONLY due to these things I would try it. I only care if it works or not.

Health Corporations are not against the 'wellness Industry' they are positively reveling in it. If some 'sucker' wants to pay $50 for some fancy packaging full of sugar pills, then there is one born every minute.

In your efforts to unmask me as a charlatan your judgment is clouded by prejudice. Why not adopt a less personally confrontational approach and simply pool all knowledge? Everyone will benefit.

I understand your concerns and I share them. There are many so-called alternative therapies and 'health' products out there that are clearly dubious. Many dangerous. They are advertised on TV daily, condoned by the Government. How many balding men have ordered 'hair restorer' in desperation?

If you had actually read the Thai labour laws you would find that every time you 'transfer knowledge' you are required to have a work permit. The law is all encompassing. That means that everyone who exchanges information on this forum is in breach of their Visa regulations. And I think that if you try and obtain a Work Permit to 'transfer knowledge' you will not be able to do so.

You have acknowledged my good intentions and that is a step forward. I in turn apologize to you for upsetting you. But, in mitigation, you have invited sharp responses by your hostility.

Are we done now?

[sargeant]

quote Mr P
"Why do you keep saying 'we'? For days now it has only been you"

Wrong Mr P as is most of what you post i have made my opposition abundantly clear on many threads. Its this kind of misrepresentation of the facts which makes you dangerous

I wont go into details on our first ever conversation (unless you request it)other than to say it was percieved by me as a blatant sales pitch
I concur with others that (unless they have a herb garden on the POOP deck) you are unqualified as are 95% of all alternative medicine practitioners
My anger at them and you is not aimed at what they prescribe as most of it is harmless and useless my anger is aimed squarely at the constant attack from you on the medical profession insiduously and constantly

HHfarang comes on and says ACV doesnt work but never mind MR P has some alternatives
If the same report was on the mainstream meds he had been prescribed and the alternatives being prescribed by his doctor Mr P would have lambasted the doctors the pharmaceutical companies and urged herbal (without a check up a meeting or so much as a sawat dee kap)the sheer hypocricy of that is mindboggling

[Chas]

Wow has this thread gone off in new and not so profitable directions!

Its too bad that we all can't calmly look at ALL suggestions for healthy living, ways of staying alive and healthy in this world . .do a bit of research on our own and come to our own private decisions.

I have really appreciated Mr. Plum's contributions. I have looked a few things up and after careful research and consideration of my own, adopted them. ( As I believe he has suggested that people do all along)

I do the same with doctors and western medicine. (Which really doesnt have all the answers!) I wont take a pill or go through a medical procedure that I have not researched VERY thoroughly on my own. (One doctor gave me a prescription for lipitor. I came home, looked it up and after I found out more about it . ..never took a single pill. A month's supply still sits in my medicine drawer. )

I think this is something Mr Plum has been saying all along. Here are some ideas that have helped others (some of which have been appreciated and used for centuries) do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

Bottom line, its your body and you have to take charge of your own health.

I happen to be of the mind that much of western medicine and much of what can be called Eastern medicine are both complimentary and helpful in maintaining health.

.

[charlesh]

"Qualified" medicos are NOT Omnipotent, NOT all knowing despite the years of training. Hence the recourse to a "2nd opinion"!!!!
Dr Mengele was qualified too!!

No doubt the surge in alternative service providers inclusive of iridology, Acupuncture, herbalists etc are a concern and in some cases a shingle can be attached after a 6 week course or $'s in the post for a "quali".
Strange also that in India the home of Veddic medicine they still die from the same causes without any enhanced mortality.

I personally find Mr P's contributions to be well meaning and interesting. I would imagine that most readers are above the age of consent and can in the case of their personal health issues make appropriate decisions. I find it curious that some people try to stiffle any debate/discussion. Feet of clay perhaps??

I am always happy to learn from others even if it smacks against my own
experiences.

[sargeant]

I have had 3 heart attacks and yet when on the very first occasion i met him without a phisical exam without enquiring closely into my condition or my medical history

Mr P recommended a black substance excreted from rocks in the himilayas as a remedy for my penile disfunction (plus other services)

Brilliant

Quote my doctor and my UK cardiologist NO NO NO viagara my aortic valve could not take the pressure

That recomendation alone was dangerous TO ME and both doctors had never heard of it and warned me strongly not to try

[splitlid]

I have had 3 heart attacks

Mr P recommended a black substance excreted from rocks in the himilayas as a remedy for my penile disfunction (plus other services)

after 3 attacks, i would have thought you need 'stimulation' as much as a fit of rolling on the floor clutching at a sharp pain in yer chest.

[sargeant]

there is an informed post for you sorry to disapoint you but heart attacks are not as you describe nothing like it
can i put your post down to cinematic induced paranoia or just plain uninformed
Just for your interest the oldest and biggest heart attack i had i dont even vaguely remember it i only know i had it was because it was plain to see on an angiogram screen even to me
Which perchance is a minor inconsequential piece of equipment that herbal/alternatives dont seem to need to dignose patients and proffer remedies

[MrPlum]

According to Dr. Joel Wallach "Almost all of the degenerative diseases--arthritis, osteoporosis, dental problems, hypertension, heart disease, cancer, bone spurs, kidney stones, muscular dystrophy, carpal tunnel syndrome, cataracts, Alzheimer's disease, and the list could go on--are either directly or indirectly related to mineral deficiencies. Our plants cannot manufacture minerals, our soils never had all 60 minerals in them, and soils that were enriched with minerals are now depleted from intensive farming." 99 percent of Americans are deficient in minerals and trace elements ---according to a U.S. Senate study (Document No. 264.)

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/fulvic.htm

The article goes on to explain the role that Shilajit plays.

Sarge. You rightly consulted your doctor. He's clearly not familiar with the remedy but that's his problem and not mine.

I have tried to respond to every criticism as fast as they come through the door but I can see this has not impressed everyone. For the sake of harmony on the board, I withdraw.

I am enjoying my time here in Hua Hin and will continue to do so. I hope you will all settle down and be able to do the same.

[richard]

Withdrawing Mr P???????????

Your posts based on your experience are invaluable to many of us and will be missed

Ignore the prats who pontificate and critisise you. As someone posted earlier we are all adults and able to make choices and we all (should) seek to learn from others

Too many people are wearing blinkers these days and rely on garbage pumped out by the Goverments, advisors and media

Too many people like to stick their head in the sand and not learn/listen

Sh1t - If you cannot speak your mind what is the point of a forum?

Mr P, Maybe you need a face to face with your critics. Worked for me on 2 occasions. Forum bashing is easy but face to face is far more productive even if the end result is you agree to differ

Keep the info coming and ignore the smart arses. They are just forum bashers and lapdogs

[sargeant]

quote Mr P.
"He's clearly not familiar with the remedy but that's his problem and not mine."

Typical backsliding answer but here is the kicker he WAS clearly and totally aware of my condition and my medical history

you patently were NOT even interested let alone aware having made absolutely NO NIL enquiries or examinations on my condition or historyand yet you made recommendations anyway (note plural) (that makes you dangerous)

[splitlid]

can i put your post down to cinematic induced paranoia

yep, definately that one

[Super Joe]

ewwww, splitlid's got CIP.

The natural remedy for that is turning right on the 3rd floor of Market Village and entering the 10-pin bowling program,
avoid going straight ahead to the 'Movie House' at all costs.

SJ