Saving Thailand ?

General chat about life in the Land Of Smiles. Discuss expat life, relationship issues and all things generally Thailand and Asia related.
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Super Joe
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Post by Super Joe »

johnnyk wrote:Just curious, but what prompts the messianic impulse in westerners?
Why can't we just leave people alone in their own countries?
Arrogance, pompousness and an inflated opinion of self-importance.
The MV cinema thread trying to tell the management how we farangs would like them to run their business, how they should advertise, what product they should sell and lambasting their intelligence levels because they are not running it the way WE want, is a perfect example. I agree with their sentiments but leave it there, its not my business and find Thais will do the exact opposite of what we demand them do even if they know it makes sense or not, then we get to stamp our little feet.

Generally accross the board, I find the way farangs carry on here is embarrassing much of the time.

SJ
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Post by Jamtarts »

Couldn't have put it better myself, spitting the dummy because they can't watch Harry Potter in English, where do these people get off! and a petition to boot. You are in Thailand not Dysney land so get a grip maybe learn to speak some Thai and get an understanding of the mind set. As for middle class Thai men hating Farangs who have Thai wives suggest that maybe you try and make a few friends of the above description you will find there are some great guy's out there if only you make the effort to meet them on a level playing field.

:cuss:
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Post by sandman67 »

If westerners "whine" then its because we were lucky enough to come from places that have been industrialised and became financial powerhouses earlier on than Thailand. Through experience and making cock ups in a hard business environment western companies have developed tools and techniques that make them effective. Things generally sort of work.

So if I come here and see situations that would need small changes to make them better for my missus, her family, her mates and by default me and mine, then is it so wrong to point these out or to try to effect change? I was brought up to try to make changes that make things better. I dont and wont sit on my arse and mutter Mai Pen Rai while the country goes to the dogs...which is what is happening. I dont want to see my adopted kids growing up in a third rate shithole with a crappy education and no prospects.

When it comes to tourism Thailand consistently fails for one reason - the TAT is staffed by complete idiots whose only exposure to the west comes care of Thai TV and the odd junket jolly. One idiotic policy after another.

Women getting raped on beaches? Ah dont kick the useless police's arses....issue stupid whistles.

ISOC out of control and brutalising refugees and southern Thais? Ah dont kick them....just tell the western press bare faced lies.

Outright criminality out of control at the airport involving police and security staff? Ah dont make arrests and show the world you are cleaning things up. No, just tell more lies to save face. and do nothing at all.

Headless chicken fever in town causing a minute number of deaths...less than occur on the roads in BKK in a weekend? Ah dont react like others and take it in perspective. No...make it out to be the equivalent of Ebola, get staff at the airport to wear stupid ineffective masks and scare the shit out of people arriving here.

One more thing:

driving a big flashy car and owning it are two very very different things. Most of those big flashy cars are being driven....they are bought on the never never and a hell of a lot get reposessed every month. Theres one parked down the soi from my house. The house its parked outside looks like a bomb hit it. Its more important to that particular father to drive a flash car than put his kids through the best school he can.

I've had to stick my big farang foot down a lot recently with Mrs S as she was falling into the same trap. As I told her: kids, house, business, then flash car.

:cheers:
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Post by MrPlum »

sandman67 wrote:I've had to stick my big farang foot down a lot recently with Mrs S as she was falling into the same trap. As I told her: kids, house, business, then flash car.

:cheers:
And I thought it was only women who had the shopping brain...

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Post by AWOL »

Super Joe wrote:
johnnyk wrote:Just curious, but what prompts the messianic impulse in westerners?
Why can't we just leave people alone in their own countries?
Arrogance, pompousness and an inflated opinion of self-importance.
The MV cinema thread trying to tell the management how we farangs would like them to run their business, how they should advertise, what product they should sell and lambasting their intelligence levels because they are not running it the way WE want, is a perfect example. I agree with their sentiments but leave it there, its not my business and find Thais will do the exact opposite of what we demand them do even if they know it makes sense or not, then we get to stamp our little feet.

Generally accross the board, I find the way farangs carry on here is embarrassing much of the time.

SJ
Jamtarts wrote:
Couldn't have put it better myself, spitting the dummy because they can't watch Harry Potter in English, where do these people get off! and a petition to boot. You are in Thailand not Dysney land so get a grip maybe learn to speak some Thai and get an understanding of the mind set. As for middle class Thai men hating Farangs who have Thai wives suggest that maybe you try and make a few friends of the above description you will find there are some great guy's out there if only you make the effort to meet them on a level playing field.
SJ and Jamtarts,
I suggest you reread the petition and the OP about the petition - while the petition has been started by a newspaper aimed at farangs, the petition itself makes the comparison between other places in Thailand and Hua Hin; it is not trying to save Thailand nor tell the Thais what to do; it is attempting to show the local cinema in Hua Hin (and their bosses in Bangkok) that there is a demand for original soundtrack movies from all sections of the local community, resident or visitor, Thai or farang. It has no place in this discussion as it is not aimed at Thais in general, nor even an industry in general; it is aimed just at the local cinema who are operating contrary to other cinemas in their own company and others across Thailand. We would appreciate it if you get your facts straight when making such comparisons.
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Post by thaiorchid »

sandman. Yes we have all seen how effective tools and techniques in western companies have brought prosperity to the world. I am quite sure Thai companies like PTT, PTTEP, BANPU, CPF and all the Thai banks are quite happy they did not follow in the footsteps of their sophisticated western peers. And do not blame it on the Wall Street, because SET is even more of a casino than WS. So maybe the companyleaders i this "sh1thole" not are so incompetent after all.
I guess we all have in us, coming from the west, that we want to change certain things around here. Make it more efficient, because we stupidly believe that it will everybody happy. I have Thai staff, and when I first came here, I tried to run my business efficient and organized according to what I had learned back home. As you have already guessed, I was the only one with headache. Today it is 90% Mai Pen Rai and 10% common business-sense. And everyone is happy, most of all me.
Sometimes you have to put your ear to the ground.
Your comments on the TAT-staff, in a way reflects what made me start this thread, namely the expats inflated opinion of selfimportance, believe it or not, tourists from the west are not the most important group for TAT, that is domestic tourists, followed by pax from other Asian countries.
What I am trying to say is, I do not think everything is this country is fantastic, But if you want changes, you need to work within the system and for expats in for the long haul, especially with Thai families it is fully posible, it just takes a little effort. Might even change the Thai perception of us.
You often hear from expats, that one of their reasons for beeing, is that their homecountries are turning into muslimabad, and the bloody immigrants do not integrate !! We are the Abdullahs here, and we should keep that in mind.
thaiorchid

About the moo-flu I agree with you 100%, on the other hand it was the WHO, who declared a pandemic. And if the Thais did not do anything about it, you would soon have someone whining about it here.
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Post by MrPlum »

thaiorchid wrote:I guess we all have in us, coming from the west, that we want to change certain things around here. Make it more efficient, because we stupidly believe that it will everybody happy.
Not at all. I couldn't be happier being here and the 'Are you happy?' poll suggests the majority are too.
You often hear from expats, that one of their reasons for beeing, is that their homecountries are turning into muslimabad, and the bloody immigrants do not integrate !! We are the Abdullahs here, and we should keep that in mind.
thaiorchid
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Post by Spitfire »

Nice pics of the brains MrP. :thumb:

On another note, there's no "Saving Thailand" from itself because, in their eyes, it would be a loss of face to admit that it's anything other than perfect already. If you get caught out, whether it's a girl in a bar or a government official etc, then lie your way out of it. People/countries/companies/organisations etc have to want to be "saved" in the first place and here is not one of them. There's no point whinging about it but it is a good target for humour and if they actually sorted it out properly and became like Singapore then most of us would leave. It's a double edged sword, like most things.

The only way, as we have said before on other threads, is through the education system and the family environment set-up, both of which are flawed. It is interesting how many Thais strive to emulate a western lifestyle but fail miserably with how to prioritise the aquisition process, as Sandman mentioned.

There is nothing wrong with observations or criticism on any subject. However, it is true that westerners over-estimate their importance, the Thais don't give a toss about anything to do with us, we are just a necessary evil that is tolerated because some of them make some money out of us and they don't want to be labelled as openly racist internationally. I know for sure many of the locals would be quite happy if their government just decided to send us all home and ban tourism by non Thais in Thailand.

Their system is geared up, and has been for centuries, to just get on with it in their class-rigid structure and to hell with all. They dislike it when we turn up and bypass the rules which is in their eyes sacrilege but they forget that they have become so spell-bound by western culture and lifestyle, mixed with the communication revolution (Internet/mobiles etc) that everyone including people in rice fields in a village have seen the "promised land" and are unwilling just to forget about the bright lights, money, fast cars, supermarkets which is barely in it's infancy here but has already gained such a firm grip on everyone's mental desires. This has all happened in less than a generation. That's the threat we and our cultures pose to the Thai way, which is, emansipating people that they consider shouldn't be freed from their "Thai" situation, it's a threat to the pyramid. However, it's inevitable that it will slowly retreat/change no matter whether they kick and scream along the way.

HH is not a representitive example of general Thailand as it's, as mentioned earlier, a get away beach town for the Thais from Bangkok at the weekend, which.....ironically, is just what I mentioned in the paragraph above. That's westerised Thais from Bangkok rushing down in their big cars to the beach for a night or two to bloww some money and get away from the concrete jungle.

Hmmmmmmm. :mrgreen:

TAT is a hopeless organisation that understands little about effectively promoting tourism, probably becuase it's staff have no experience of what tourists want and just relies upon the fact that foreigners will come no matter what. Not sure for how much longer they can rely on that avenue of approach though.

Having said all of that above, it is all just possible conclusions drawn from observations over the last 10 years.
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Super Joe
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Post by Super Joe »

AWOL wrote:SJ and Jamtarts,
I suggest you reread the petition and the OP about the petition - while the petition has been started by a newspaper aimed at farangs, the petition itself makes the comparison between other places in Thailand and Hua Hin; it is not trying to save Thailand nor tell the Thais what to do; it is attempting to show the local cinema in Hua Hin (and their bosses in Bangkok) that there is a demand for original soundtrack movies from all sections of the local community, resident or visitor, Thai or farang. It has no place in this discussion as it is not aimed at Thais in general, nor even an industry in general; it is aimed just at the local cinema who are operating contrary to other cinemas in their own company and others across Thailand. We would appreciate it if you get your facts straight when making such comparisons.
I've read the petition and signed it. Wasn't referring to AWOL and never mentioned them, just comments in the thread.

Cheers,
SJ
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Post by margaretcarnes »

Sorry SM but are you really talking about the UK when you say we come from an industrialised powerhouse which more or less works?
Maybe when you were a youngster and I was er... a little older than that. But surely not now.
Pension funds etc collapsing (OK, maybe part of the whole global recession,) but one financial institution baled out last year by HMG - Northern Rock - back in the red already. House reposessions and unemployment through the roof. Government ministers claiming for duck houses. Privatisation of the railway starting to crumble. The TaTa owned Corus Steel in decline.
Yes - this powerhouse is really doing well! I just hope that the LOS is watching and learning, and maybe even thankful that it is - in some respects - 50 years behind the West.
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Post by hhfarang »

That's a good thought Mags, but I doubt they will learn from the West's mistakes. We western countries don't even learn from our own and keep repeating them... :?
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Post by valrhona »

I find it somewhat amusing to see that some people seem to think that the West has this sort of inherent superiority. The truth is that we've built and continue to build our wealth on the back of developing countries.

Workers have been exploited from time immemorial, when unions came in the West, it was time to move somewhere else to get cheap labor and make millions.

As to our education system, I certainly wouldn't claim any superiority, it simply has more money and provides more access to education. As a matter of fact, it's not uncommon to see asians being way more successful in Western school because they often have a much better work ethic than the average westerner who has been spoilt. Going to Harvard, Yale, Oxford or the Sorbonne doesn't give you a better education though it does provide better opportunities because of the recognition and the people you associate with.

The western edge isn't about to go away anytime soon whether it's in the UK, Europe or the US even though there's an economic crisis. The difference is that we may have to make room for some more players at the table. And just because our native countries were more successful at exploiting others, it doesn't make westerners inherently more intelligent or educated. Attend any football match in the UK to see perfect proof of that...

Some people point out problems in the infrastructure as if there weren't any in the West... You're a lot more likely to die from violent crime in the US than in Thailand and there are plenty of people waiting to rip you off whether it's at the bank or the airport or maybe a little car jack.

It's not up to us to "teach" thais how to do things the way we think they should do it. Of course, they are making some mistakes but it's a much more effective learning experience to suffer the consequences than to have other people tell you not to do it and not necessarily seeing why.

In any case, as was pointed out, many people including myself(and not just thais) don't like to be told what to do and will often go out of their way to do the thing you don't want them to do just to piss you off and out of pride even if there's a price because it's worth it just for the pleasure of causing annoyance.

Thailand has its problems like any other places in the world, they need to find their own solution to problems and it doesn't involve a few thousand expats mostly living on the cheap...
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Super Joe
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Post by Super Joe »

valrhona wrote:In any case, as was pointed out, many people including myself(and not just thais) don't like to be told what to do and will often go out of their way to do the thing you don't want them to do just to piss you off and out of pride even if there's a price because it's worth it just for the pleasure of causing annoyance.

Thailand has its problems like any other places in the world, they need to find their own solution to problems and it doesn't involve a few thousand expats mostly living on the cheap...
Agree with every word valrhona, but particularly this part. Anyone who's employed Thais will know YOU CAN NOT tell them what to do, they will just do the opposite while quitely laughing at you as you get stressed out and the steam starts coming out of your ears. You don't see many bald or greying Thais, they're not stress-cases like us. I respect that they don't give a to$$ what we think, even if drives me mad at times with work.

I think they're doing just fine without us sticking our noses in, more tourist time is spent here than the likes of Hong Kong, Philippines, Singapore, Indonesia, Vietnam etc. Only Malaysia has slightly higher visitor numbers but 50% of their tourists are short trippers from Singapore, and Thailand takes more tourist Dollars than Malaysia.
Sure it's having a down period, partly self-inflicted with the yellow/red shirt thing, the odd airport scam etc, but how many times have people written Thailand off before, post-SARS, bird flu, tsunami or whatever, they always bounced back to prove people wrong and always will.

Over-inflated opinion of our self-importance, pure and simple.

:cheers:
SJ
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Post by Roel »

Super Joe wrote:
Anyone who's employed Thais will know YOU CAN NOT tell them what to do
Allow me to correct. I think that should read:
Any farang who's employed Thais will know a farang can not tell them what to do.

I have worked for companies with the stereotype rich Mercedes driving Thai owner/boss. Believe me, they can make their employees do anything. Obedience and submission being the keywords.
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Post by margaretcarnes »

All excellent points guys. Especially true is the issue of having Thai people work for (or against) you as a farang. The don't often deliberately go against the farang though, just do things their own way. Which eventually we realise is often the best anyway. Certainly less stressful for all concerned.
There are exceptions of course, when a farang run business is working to deadlines for example. But who sets the deadlines? The farang.
There are standards to set also in catering and food service, which isn't always easy. But at the end of the day explaining what is needed - and why - and discussing how to achieve a standard which suits everyone has got to be better than just laying down the law (or trying to!)
But isn't that how any business anywhere should ideally work?
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