Coup de Tat AAAH RINNG A BELLDemocracy rests in the hands of the electorate and parliament. NOT an armed mob of terrorists.
Yellow shirts AAAH RINNG A BELL
Political un-rest and rally
Re: Political un-rest and rally
An excellently summed up post
Yellow shirts AAAH RINNG A BELL
Yellow shirts AAAH RINNG A BELL
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Re: Political un-rest and rally
It's not actually clear what mob you are referring to?sandman67 wrote:I dont care what colour shirt you wear, a mob is a mob, and you NEVER negotiate with a mob.
As the great journalist, commentator and liberal reformer Horace Greely said during the Draft Riots in America:
There is no form reasoned negotiation that a violent mob will understand. You must speak to them in their own language. Give them grape, grape and more grape.
(he was advocating using cannon and grapeshot against an equally violent and armed mob that was in the process of destroying New York at that time).
Read them the riot act, then send in the troops. If they want blood, give it them in bucketloads.
Arrest all the leaders and slam them away.
Democracy rests in the hands of the electorate and parliament. NOT an armed mob of terrorists.
Talk is cheap
Re: Political un-rest and rally
If you ever watch parliament ( virtually any country) - you will see a mob (given a highly paid one).! The slow erosion of personal liberties especially in so called enlightened western ones has given rise to a lot of chagrin and disillusionment in the "process" also !!
Re: Political un-rest and rally
What amazes me is how so many people feel they can comment on the way in which the military behaved. After all, how many of the posters on this forum have personally been in a situation where you're having rocks and petrol bombs thrown at you? Speaking from experience, I can tell you it's bloody scary, and in those conditions it's bloody easy for the average national serviceman to be gripped by fear and act irrationally. When I was doing riot control I never fired a live round simply because we had discipline beaten into us and we knew what the consequences would be if we did fire on the crowd. With that said, nobody in the crowd fired at me, but I assure you, if they had, I would have broken the seal on my magazine and returned the favor. All I'm saying is that not everyone has nerves of steel, and that's what you need when you're trying to control demonstrators/riots. When you've got thousands of national servicemen facing demonstrators, and someone starts firing or throwing petrol bombs around, it's highly likely that one or more of those servicemen are going to snap, and then everything just starts to snowball.
It's even more volatile in Thailand because of the lack of discipline between the ranks. Look around you....you see troops in combat gear wearing filthy trainers, shirts hanging out, etc, etc. Now the army is asking people to return rifles that were seized from troops. Bloody hell, I don't even want to think about what would have happened to me had I lost my rifle when I was in the army.
Another thing which amazed me was the fact that the crowd were threatening to storm the one army base. Do they really expect to get away with that? In the vast majority of countries around the world, that would be viewed as an act of war and dealt with as such. I'm sorry, but you have to draw the line somewhere. As far as storming barracks is concerned, the army would have every right to use live rounds. Who in their right mind would be stupid enough to attack any army barracks. I don't even think you'd get away with it in the UK. A military base is a military base, and if you're thick enough to try invading one, well then you deserve what you get. When I was a troop doing guard duty, anyone caught trying to enter the base would have first been warned to back off. If they continued trying to enter we had orders to shoot. I'm sure that same point of view still applies in most countries.
I know many on here will disagree, but it seems obvious that no government is capable of running this country so perhaps it's time for someone with a bit of balls to do the job..............perhaps one of the generals can oversee operations. Either that, or send in the troops to clean up the mess once and for all, irrespective of what bloody color they're wearing. I've spoken to a good few Thais, and while some are for, and some against the reds, most just want the trouble to stop. Considering they're in the majority, perhaps they are the ones the people in power should be listening to. Why not have a referendum, and ask all Thais to vote yes or no to the following question: Should we do as the reds are asking? Then, with a clear picture regarding what the majority want, the trouble can be dealt with accordingly. If the majority vote yes, the government can go. If the majority vote no, then the demonstrators can go, and if they refuse to accept the verdict of the masses, let the security forces enforce the ruling using any measures they feel are necessary. Surely if the reds are confident that most of the country supports them they won't object to such a referendum?
Damn, what a long post.....
It's even more volatile in Thailand because of the lack of discipline between the ranks. Look around you....you see troops in combat gear wearing filthy trainers, shirts hanging out, etc, etc. Now the army is asking people to return rifles that were seized from troops. Bloody hell, I don't even want to think about what would have happened to me had I lost my rifle when I was in the army.
Another thing which amazed me was the fact that the crowd were threatening to storm the one army base. Do they really expect to get away with that? In the vast majority of countries around the world, that would be viewed as an act of war and dealt with as such. I'm sorry, but you have to draw the line somewhere. As far as storming barracks is concerned, the army would have every right to use live rounds. Who in their right mind would be stupid enough to attack any army barracks. I don't even think you'd get away with it in the UK. A military base is a military base, and if you're thick enough to try invading one, well then you deserve what you get. When I was a troop doing guard duty, anyone caught trying to enter the base would have first been warned to back off. If they continued trying to enter we had orders to shoot. I'm sure that same point of view still applies in most countries.
I know many on here will disagree, but it seems obvious that no government is capable of running this country so perhaps it's time for someone with a bit of balls to do the job..............perhaps one of the generals can oversee operations. Either that, or send in the troops to clean up the mess once and for all, irrespective of what bloody color they're wearing. I've spoken to a good few Thais, and while some are for, and some against the reds, most just want the trouble to stop. Considering they're in the majority, perhaps they are the ones the people in power should be listening to. Why not have a referendum, and ask all Thais to vote yes or no to the following question: Should we do as the reds are asking? Then, with a clear picture regarding what the majority want, the trouble can be dealt with accordingly. If the majority vote yes, the government can go. If the majority vote no, then the demonstrators can go, and if they refuse to accept the verdict of the masses, let the security forces enforce the ruling using any measures they feel are necessary. Surely if the reds are confident that most of the country supports them they won't object to such a referendum?
Damn, what a long post.....
Don't try to impress me with your manner of dress cos a monkey himself is a monkey no less - cold fact
Re: Political un-rest and rally
Good post Takiap, the problem with the suggestion is that voting in a traditional sense just doesn't work here as they can be bought so easily. We've all seen how a few envelopes here and there can rapidly create a 'majority' in certain parts of the country and that seems to be what started this whole mess.
I too have spoken to a lot of Thais and I would go as far as to say 80% of them just want all this to stop. It is not as if they are fighting against other countries, religions or races - they are battling and killing themselves, the whole thing is just so futile. Its like two little gangs of kids fighting in a sandpit so that their leaders can have the biggest toys. No matter the outcome the poor will remain poor and the rich will get richer, such is life in today's world.
I too have spoken to a lot of Thais and I would go as far as to say 80% of them just want all this to stop. It is not as if they are fighting against other countries, religions or races - they are battling and killing themselves, the whole thing is just so futile. Its like two little gangs of kids fighting in a sandpit so that their leaders can have the biggest toys. No matter the outcome the poor will remain poor and the rich will get richer, such is life in today's world.
Who is the happier man, he who has braved the storm of life and lived or he who has stayed securely on shore and merely existed? - Hunter S Thompson
Re: Political un-rest and rally
Takiap,
Great common sense post, I have no experience with riots but from the look of things, it takes extreme discipline. How they can blame the troops is beyond me.
Funny you say that about the referendum, I'm sure Abhisit has suggested this already when they were having the talks and the Reds flat out rejected it. It was something along the lines of voting wether the government should call early elections.
I think all this nonsense has to stop otherwise they'll destroy the country, and I think most Thai's see this.
Great common sense post, I have no experience with riots but from the look of things, it takes extreme discipline. How they can blame the troops is beyond me.
Funny you say that about the referendum, I'm sure Abhisit has suggested this already when they were having the talks and the Reds flat out rejected it. It was something along the lines of voting wether the government should call early elections.
I think all this nonsense has to stop otherwise they'll destroy the country, and I think most Thai's see this.
Re: Political un-rest and rally
An excellent post takiap and yes there is one who has done the Belfast two step on this forum I recommend a double dose of Imodium 1 hour before dancing starts. However the British army would NEVER be called in, in a case like this. Example the miners strike it WAS mooted to call in the army but was given a loud and clear bog off it’s a police matter by the rank and file.
On the poll tax riots no army but Maggie Thatcher new the numbers did not add up and threw in the towel. It is called using ones cranium.
Quote “perhaps one of the generals can oversee operations.”
The coup that threw Mr T out showed the flaws in that
There is a general running the country now and has been for donkeys of years he is the person the red shirts are talking about with the last word in UDD
As for a referendum I totally agree that is exactly what the red shirts want as well it’s called an election
I also agree that this will go on ad nauseam as long as certain people are above the law immune to accusation let alone investigation and prosecution.
Democracy will never work unless everybody is equal under the law and the law is seen to be administered based solely on the evidence and the facts and to be totally impartial
I think that the red shirts should put some distance between Mr T and themselves I would like to hear the convictions against him are quashed BUT NOT the charges. I would like to hear that he stand trial on all charges against him in front of impartial judges and stands or falls on IMPARTIAL JUDGEMENTS and does any time in jail like everybody else if that is the finding. IF he is as innocent as he says he is he has nothing to fear and if he is proven innocent on all counts by impartial judges even you would have to agree he has the right of innocence do I expect that! No I don’t! I doubt he would come back but he would not have the VALID argument he has now that he did not get a fair trial or could not get one.
And finally if he stays out of the country leave him there hounding him around the world has turned him if he is a crook into robin hood/Ned Kelly/dick turpin and if he is innocent into Joan of ark
On the poll tax riots no army but Maggie Thatcher new the numbers did not add up and threw in the towel. It is called using ones cranium.
Quote “perhaps one of the generals can oversee operations.”
The coup that threw Mr T out showed the flaws in that
There is a general running the country now and has been for donkeys of years he is the person the red shirts are talking about with the last word in UDD
As for a referendum I totally agree that is exactly what the red shirts want as well it’s called an election
I also agree that this will go on ad nauseam as long as certain people are above the law immune to accusation let alone investigation and prosecution.
Democracy will never work unless everybody is equal under the law and the law is seen to be administered based solely on the evidence and the facts and to be totally impartial
I think that the red shirts should put some distance between Mr T and themselves I would like to hear the convictions against him are quashed BUT NOT the charges. I would like to hear that he stand trial on all charges against him in front of impartial judges and stands or falls on IMPARTIAL JUDGEMENTS and does any time in jail like everybody else if that is the finding. IF he is as innocent as he says he is he has nothing to fear and if he is proven innocent on all counts by impartial judges even you would have to agree he has the right of innocence do I expect that! No I don’t! I doubt he would come back but he would not have the VALID argument he has now that he did not get a fair trial or could not get one.
And finally if he stays out of the country leave him there hounding him around the world has turned him if he is a crook into robin hood/Ned Kelly/dick turpin and if he is innocent into Joan of ark
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Re: Political un-rest and rally
sargeant,
Abhisit proposed a referendum on dissolution on day 3 of the televised negotiations.
Where all Thais would vote if they wanted dissolution and fresh elections.
The Red shirt leaders flatly turned it down, saying they will not do this.
To this I ask why? Whats to be scared of if they are so confident they'll win?
Abhisit proposed a referendum on dissolution on day 3 of the televised negotiations.
Where all Thais would vote if they wanted dissolution and fresh elections.
The Red shirt leaders flatly turned it down, saying they will not do this.
To this I ask why? Whats to be scared of if they are so confident they'll win?
Re: Political un-rest and rally
i agree he did
the difference is time the result would be the same either way
Veerha said it to him when he proposed it if the reds loose and Abhisit wins an election the reds would go home and abide by the election result what was Abhisit afraid of if he was so sure he would win
and then asked why have a referendum reds win and then an election and the reds win with all the costs of 2 two referendums for what point or gain
plus the reds openly said they did not trust him and his boss to accept the results of such a referendum
plus the referendum was also to include changes to the constitution and would take months to set up
plus the one part of the constitution the reds want changed was not on the referendum or even to be talked about
i will let you figure out what that was
the difference is time the result would be the same either way
Veerha said it to him when he proposed it if the reds loose and Abhisit wins an election the reds would go home and abide by the election result what was Abhisit afraid of if he was so sure he would win
and then asked why have a referendum reds win and then an election and the reds win with all the costs of 2 two referendums for what point or gain
plus the reds openly said they did not trust him and his boss to accept the results of such a referendum
plus the referendum was also to include changes to the constitution and would take months to set up
plus the one part of the constitution the reds want changed was not on the referendum or even to be talked about
i will let you figure out what that was
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Re: Political un-rest and rally
A referendum is easier and cheaper than organising an election. No campaign management for starters. Think of all the constituents.
The Reds are not 'in power' at the moment, they cannot just call a mass rally and kick out the elected government because they are not happy. You ask for what point or gain on 2 elections, why do they deserve even 1 election? I guess he is trying to negotiate, go half way, compromise you could call it.
On the flip side, why should the Abhisit give them any advantage at all, he doesn't even have to offer the referendum.
Maybe Abhisit wanted to buy time or whatever game he was playing, it doesn't really matter, the point is that The UDD is so focused on an election and now kicking Abhisit out of the country, if the Reds lose the referendum they'd lose more than face, they lose their main backer, or until they re-gather a couple of years later for more demonstrations.
The Reds are not 'in power' at the moment, they cannot just call a mass rally and kick out the elected government because they are not happy. You ask for what point or gain on 2 elections, why do they deserve even 1 election? I guess he is trying to negotiate, go half way, compromise you could call it.
On the flip side, why should the Abhisit give them any advantage at all, he doesn't even have to offer the referendum.
Maybe Abhisit wanted to buy time or whatever game he was playing, it doesn't really matter, the point is that The UDD is so focused on an election and now kicking Abhisit out of the country, if the Reds lose the referendum they'd lose more than face, they lose their main backer, or until they re-gather a couple of years later for more demonstrations.
Re: Political un-rest and rally
sargeant ,
Sorry, one other thing.
Here in Australia, on Wednesday night, was a very interesting (but short) doco on the issues we are discussing.
They touch on some very, very interesting topics (that would not be able to be spoken about here). But the conclusion that I can see is that there is a massive power vacuum opening up, and its contenders have their eyes on the prize.
The journos name is Eric Cambpell, try look it up if you havent already seen it.
Sorry, one other thing.
Here in Australia, on Wednesday night, was a very interesting (but short) doco on the issues we are discussing.
They touch on some very, very interesting topics (that would not be able to be spoken about here). But the conclusion that I can see is that there is a massive power vacuum opening up, and its contenders have their eyes on the prize.
The journos name is Eric Cambpell, try look it up if you havent already seen it.
Re: Political un-rest and rally
cozza,
I don't usually get involved in these discussions on the board as I think all parties are equally to blame.
However, I think you'll find that Abhisit and The Democrats were not voted into power. No election was held for them to run the country. They were appointed by elite groups and through political bargaining.
The red shirts won a number of successive elections and they were the ones kicked out by the yellows after months of political rhetoric, airport seizures and bringing the country to its knees.
The red shirts are trying to topple an unelected government.
That's how I see it and I'm trying to be careful how I word things as I don't support either side
I don't usually get involved in these discussions on the board as I think all parties are equally to blame.
However, I think you'll find that Abhisit and The Democrats were not voted into power. No election was held for them to run the country. They were appointed by elite groups and through political bargaining.
The red shirts won a number of successive elections and they were the ones kicked out by the yellows after months of political rhetoric, airport seizures and bringing the country to its knees.
The red shirts are trying to topple an unelected government.
That's how I see it and I'm trying to be careful how I word things as I don't support either side
Re: Political un-rest and rally
coup de tatThe Reds are not 'in power' at the moment, they cannot just call a mass rally and kick out the elected government because they are not happy.
yellow shirts
TRT banned
PPP banned
two prime ministers thrown out
could you please quote your posts saying
when all the other crap was going onthey cannot just call a mass rally and kick out the elected government
and yes the real problem is what we cannot discuss which means debating with one arm tied behind my back
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
Re: Political un-rest and rally
lomuamart,
I too am trying not take sides.
Elected by majority through a coalition. Nobody voted for him directly, but he holds the majority of seats.
100% though, this is not black and white and I will bow to this argument, mainly because the voting thing will go back and forward ie, vote buying, poor cannot be trusted to vote...I've heard them all and am tired of that cr@p.
sargeant,
YES!!!! 100% its hypocritical, the childish stunts have to end. Doesnt give the Reds the right to do the same. 2 wrongs dont make a right.
I too am trying not take sides.
Elected by majority through a coalition. Nobody voted for him directly, but he holds the majority of seats.
100% though, this is not black and white and I will bow to this argument, mainly because the voting thing will go back and forward ie, vote buying, poor cannot be trusted to vote...I've heard them all and am tired of that cr@p.
sargeant,
YES!!!! 100% its hypocritical, the childish stunts have to end. Doesnt give the Reds the right to do the same. 2 wrongs dont make a right.
Re: Political un-rest and rally
I agree cozza 2 wrongs dont make a right and double standards make it worse
2 parties TRT &PPP plus 35 TRT /PPP mps banned plus two prime ministers
and the Padipat as pure as driven snow give me a break
the padipat 285 mill and the 29 mill were in the same election which led to the banning of PPP and its MPs and 2 Prime ministers and yet the electoral commission still havent interviewed all witnesses on these charges against the democrat party and of course the padipat appointed govt under the coup de tat only threw out corrupt judges and appointed honest ones throughout the judicial system paying particular attention to the electoral commission
i ask the question yet again just how blatant does it have to be
unless this country has proper democracy with universal suffrage with noone above the law and an impartial non aligned judiciary this country will continue down the U bend
i champion all of these points i DO NOT care what party or colour shirt runs the country
but i will support any party that trys for those ideals
Abhisit got to power by buying whole MPs the stench of hyper hypocricy is overwhelming 100 Bt to a poor thai farmer and the screams of heinous despicable disgusting on every single media outlet could be heard on mars
but mps changing sides purely for the better coffee room
well the silence was deafening
2 parties TRT &PPP plus 35 TRT /PPP mps banned plus two prime ministers
and the Padipat as pure as driven snow give me a break
the padipat 285 mill and the 29 mill were in the same election which led to the banning of PPP and its MPs and 2 Prime ministers and yet the electoral commission still havent interviewed all witnesses on these charges against the democrat party and of course the padipat appointed govt under the coup de tat only threw out corrupt judges and appointed honest ones throughout the judicial system paying particular attention to the electoral commission
i ask the question yet again just how blatant does it have to be
unless this country has proper democracy with universal suffrage with noone above the law and an impartial non aligned judiciary this country will continue down the U bend
i champion all of these points i DO NOT care what party or colour shirt runs the country
but i will support any party that trys for those ideals
Abhisit got to power by buying whole MPs the stench of hyper hypocricy is overwhelming 100 Bt to a poor thai farmer and the screams of heinous despicable disgusting on every single media outlet could be heard on mars
but mps changing sides purely for the better coffee room
well the silence was deafeningA Greatfull Guest of Thailand