Becoming a Thai National, again.

[lilmolfie]

My mother was born in Laos. She moved to Bangkok where she met my father... in 1983 she moved to England to be with my father and has continued to live there ever since. She is now a British Citizen. Never had dual citizenship. Today she was told that her ID card had expired 28 years ago and after tracing her family tree (she left home at an early age and never looked back) she apparently doesn't exsist. She plans to move back to Thailand when she retires but was quite emotional when telling me she had been 'wiped from the system' - I'm not sure where to go from here. Any idea's?

[PeteC]

Need to clarify a few points lilmolfie:

1) ID card from where, Laos or Thailand?
2) Unless she formally renounced her original citizenship, she did indeed have dual citizenship all these years and is still a citizen of either Laos and/or Thailand IMO.
3) Tell her to try her hardest to find all the paperwork that was done when she immigrated to the UK. In there will be valuable documents or copies of her identity papers and what was used to get her initial UK visa. That would be a great help and a good start in reconstructing things.

Concerning Thai ID cards, I heard tell you can present the old one and simply be issued with a new one. However, I don't know what other supporting documents may be required. Over to others. Pete

[lilmolfie]

Thanks Pete,

1) Thailand
2) As far as they [Thai officials] are concerned she is just a British Citizen as she only holds a British Passport and has been a resdient in the UK for nearly 30 years. Plus she's not on any system to clarify her nationalism of Thailand.
3) I will ask her (as soon as she awakens) about her documents.

I think her main concern was not wanting to be treated as a foreigner in the country she had considered ''home'' - she always knew she wanted to retire back here I guess.

Concerning Thai ID cards, I heard tell you can present the old one and simply be issued with a new one. However, I don't know what other supporting documents may be required.

- ID cards must be renewed every 5 years (or so she was told today at the issuing office). She hasn't renewed it in 28 years though Presenting her old card meant nothing as she wasn't even on the system!

[PeteC]

Yes, a search for any file she kept from back then will be critical. She had to have a Thai passport or she could not have gotten out of Thailand and into the UK in the first place. Her initial visa to the UK will be in there. If she can't find it, if she can come up with the Thai passport number all can be traced from there.

I don't know how long the UK retains documents such as your Mom's original paperwork but it's worth a shot if it's in a government warehouse somewhere.

Just for info, the original Mrs. Pete went through much the same, but she had retained her Thai passport. With that, 35 years after she left for the USA she was able to get a new Thai ID card and passport. Fortunately, she had put herself on her older brother's Thai house book way back in 1972 before she left and that was critical in obtaining the new ID/Passport. You're Mom also will have to do something similar, somehow. Pete

[lilmolfie]

Yes, a search for any file she kept from back then will be critical. She had to have a Thai passport or she could not have gotten out of Thailand and into the UK in the first place. Her initial visa to the UK will be in there. If she can't find it, if she can come up with the Thai passport number all can be traced from there.

- Indeed she did so I pray that she has kept it

Fortunately, she had put herself on her older brother's Thai house book way back in 1972 before she left and that was critical in obtaining the new ID/Passport. You're Mom also will have to do something similar, somehow. Pete

My dad has a house in his name here in Thailand (even though they are divorced she kept the surname) Would this suffice to if she had her name on the deeds as well?

Thanks by the way

[PeteC]

The 'house book' think perhaps take with a grain of salt. It could have been the flavour of the day when my ex was going through her process and something that particular government clerk wanted to see, and subsequently related to me by my daughter that it "...streamlined the entire renewal process..." I would think that an old Thai passport and an old ID card are really the key factors and not the house book.

Your Father (assuming he is not Thai) owning a non-condo house and land here is an entire new thread. If a house book is of value it should probably go back to her early roots here. However, if her name is indeed on the property your Father has, it's worth taking along the documents when she tries again. Pete

[Nereus]

Back in those days there was no house "book" as such. It was a large piece of the old style Government paper, that served the same purpose. I remember when it was changed to the current form it was supposedly "updated" to remove any names that were no longer resident at that address.

[PeteC]

One thing your Mom may have forgotten Lil, and you can remind her to cheer her up. This is Thailand, anything is possible here one way or the other. She's really been a Thai citizen all these years but didn't realize it. It's just a matter of getting things together the best she can, and probably taking a trip to Bangkok and sitting down with those officials rather than those in Hua Hin. Chin up! Pete

[lilmolfie]

Well I have tried my best to talk to her but she just keeps shutting me out, telling me she 'doesn't want to talk about it anymore'. Maybe I'll give her a few weeks and attempt to talk to her about her options. My guess is that she really is disheartened by this. Thanks for your advice though guys, appreciate it muchly.

[uncle tom]

I discovered a year or so back that there are quite a few people in Thailand who were born there and have lived all their lives there who are not 'on the system' - usually because their parents were refugees from neighbouring countries who never got naturalised.

I also discovered that the 'going rate' for putting someone on the system so they can get an ID card is 30,000 baht.

It's possible that the officer your mother dealt with reckoned he had a sporting chance of getting a fat brown envelope, and therefore stonewalled a legitimate request.

I suspect that fighting your mother's case through the proper channels would cost as much in legal fees as would a sweetener.

As it's upsetting your mum already, perhaps it might be an idea to go back to the office she applied to, and dropping a broad hint, ask if perhaps you could help them 'find' the relevant documents..

Tom

[Super Joe]

As others have said lilmolfi, I'm sure there's nothing to worry about as it's a common enough situation what with all the Thais living overseas, of worse comes to the worse it's a paperwork exercise to re-apply, there's a bit about it in the Thai Nationality Acts in these links, one in force before your Mum left, then ammended again in 2008.
>Thai Nationality Act 1965 (but incorporating some 1992 ammendments): http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0173.pdf
>Thai Nationality Act 2008 ammendments: http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0367.pdf


But on this dual nationality thing, I know loads of Thai adults have it & use two passports, but it doesn't sound all that clear whether it's allowed or not from some of the stuff I've read. The MFA seem to state it's ok, but Immigration not so, there's a post on Immigration's website by someone believed to work for them which basically says the following (http://imm2.go.th/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86).....
Case:
Individual who enter the kingdom with foreign passport and depart with Thai passport. How do Immigration officers handle?

Pratice:
Immigration officers do as follows:
1. Only give a permit to the passport that was used to enter into the kingdom. Under the Thailand's Nationality Act.
2. For Thai whose have two nationality, do report this matter to Special Branch then to Department of Interior and to be annouced in the Goverment Gazette.
3. For individual who enter into the kingdom with foreign passport then changed nationality to Thai. If he/she still use that foreign passport, the officer make a report to Special Branch to revoke Thai nationality.

Laws and relevant order:
Immigration no. 2009.142/882 lated 26 Feb 2009. Guideline, Passport holder with dependants or individual with 2 passport.

The above order is pinned in Thai, and an unofficial translation claims it says:
2. Individuals holding two passports.
2.1 Thai passport and foreign passport.
2.1.1 Using a foreign passport to enter the Kingdom and a Thai passport to leave the Kingdom.
2.1.2 Using a Thai passport to enter the Kingdom and a foreign passport to leave the Kingdom, owing to the fact that the Thai passport has expired and there is an urgent reason for travelling out of the Kingdom.
2.1.3 Using a foreign passport to leave the Kingdom and using a Thai passport which has no exit stamp to enter the Kingdom.

The immigration officer is required to act as follows:
(1) Only give a permit to the same passport that was used to enter the Kingdom or the same passport used to leave the Kingdom. Thailand's laws governing nationality only permit one nationality.
(2) In the case of a Thai observed holding two nationalities the officer is required to report the case to Special Branch so they can make a case to the Interior Ministry for the publication in the Royal Gazette of an order revoking the individual's Thai nationality.


The 'Immigration poster' also pinned a...very dated but maybe relevant...1970 directive from the Interior Ministry to the MFA asking them to get Thai overseas embassies to collect names of all Thais who've been naturalized as aliens, so that the ministry could revocate their Thai nationality in accordance with Section 5 of the 1965 Nationality Act blah blah.

SJ