Food Safety

[migrant]

Pete's thread on the Chiang Mai couple sparked this for me

My mother in law has been here in the states for ~ 16 years. Most those years she worked in a Thai restaurant as head cook.

She now lives with my wife, and I, and has assumed most of the cooking duties, and has done so for the last couple years.

Over those years she constantly leaves food, meats, poultry, fish, etc outside instead of refrigerating it.

I've mentioned it numerous times to my wife, she shrugs her shoulders and says "we always do that in Thailand, and it's warmer there".

Well, she is right, I see it all the time when in Thailand, but here we are schooled to refrigerate, etc. Even my wife who works at the restaurants in Disneyland, and has had to attend food safety courses, admits the foodstuffs should be refrigerated, but then shrugs again and dismisses it.

What do you see?

[PeteC]

One of the first things that comes to mind is any trip to a wet market in many countries over here, not just Thailand, and seeing what goes on there. Especially disturbing to me is the hanging meat with flies all over it.

Having said that I'm very impressed with Mrs. Pete who diligently scans expiration dates when buying and when purging things from our cupboard and 'frig. I don't think she's alone in doing this as her and her friends talk about it all the time. She also thaws in the 'frig often for a day or two rather than quickly on the sink. When she brings restaurant food home she often asks, "should I put it in the 'frig as 3 hours until dinner...."

Having said THAT, none of them think twice about sitting down at a roadside or village food stall and ordering whatever sight unseen concerning ingredients. When asked, her reply is that these are permanent people and shops and they aren't going to kill their customers. Logic in that.

The habit your MIL has Migrant may just be different generational thinking. Pete

[Siani]

Well I am thinking twice before eating certain foods. I have been watching a horrific programme on TV called "Monsters inside me" If you do not prepare sushi in the correct manner you can get a horrible worm type of parasite in your body Also you can have horrible parasites from pork...there is another episode tomorrow night. Anyway be careful if making sushi, follow strict codes.

See http://komipets.com/2011/01/30/monsters ... bad-sushi/

[margaretcarnes]

I have also undergone food hygeine (and many other Health and Safety courses) in the past so am well aware of refrigeration/de-frosting/storeage/food handling etc regulations. All well and good in a commercial situation, where one error can result in food poisoning affecting many customers.
In a domestic setting I am still aware and sensible, but I do think these precautions can be taken too far. Particularly with expiry dates on food - and with guidance about how long food can be kept in the freezer. For example the instruction 'freeze on day of purchase and consume within one month' applies to so many food products that it's just laughable.
These dates are - IMO - purely precautionary (and probably also designed so that manufacturers sell more.) Too much food is binned which is still fine, especially tinned and hermetically sealed foods.
Good example this week on my local radio station - the presenter did a survey on expiry dates on packets of crisps (chips) and almost every brand in the UK carries a Saturday expiry date.
Meat and fish of course are much more of a potential risk, but anyone with a sense of smell and half a brain can tell when meat is 'off', and when handled and cooked properly it shouldn't be a problem unless there has already been an infection during the production process - which no amount of refrigeration will alleviate.
As for defrosting and leaving meats out, common sense has to prevail. Most meats need to be left out at room temperature anyway for about an hour before cooking to 'rest' - and will cook better for it. They should of course be covered, and not left out too long, but refer back to 'smell and half a brain'! (Plus thorough cooking.)
Must admit the sight of flies on raw meat in Thai markets can be a bit off putting at first, but I've always figured that cooking will cure all - and have never suffered any ill effects. But then again I'm old enough to remember butter being sold from huge blocks sitting on an open and unrefrigerated counter. Meats hanging in the butchers shop in the days before we had fly zappers and aircon. Biscuits, sugar and flour shovelled out of open sacks on the shop floor. Maybe it's the young 'uns who are growing up with deficient immune systems who are more susceptible than most.

[MrPlum]

Maybe it's the young 'uns who are growing up with deficient immune systems who are more susceptible than most.

I think you've hit the nail on the head margaret. Us old 'uns, too'.

The 'Germ Theory' says that there are no end of terrifying bugs flying around and if they land on you, you will be sick. Thus, in quiet dread, we spend lots of money on chemical cleansers, vaccines, anything that will sanitize our homes, bodies and pets.

I've mentioned 'Nature Cure' in the past. It is responsible for many of my heretical views. It fundamentally disagrees with the 'Germ Theory'. Read the first few paragraphs of Chapter 1 of this link. It should remove some of the fear of these dreaded bugs. http://chestofbooks.com/health/natural- ... index.html

'This predisposing factor is in every case a lowered vitality and a body clogged with waste materials and impurities.'

So, there you have it. The germ is not the cause.

Reassured?

Good. Except there is a problem. Most of us have lowered vitality and toxicity in our bodies, due to a multitude of reasons. This obviously leaves us susceptible. So, unless we address our weakened state, we DO after all have to do battle with those germs.

Don't eat the meat!

[margaretcarnes]

Class Mr P - 'Don't eat the meat'! For some reason reminds me of Jaws - 'don't go in the water'! But seriously yes, if we are in a weakened state we are more prone to infections etc. When we are ill our bodies tell us not to eat much anyway. Our UK hospitals used to recognise this and clean thoroughly every day. Say no more.

[Roel]

Most Thai households have a 'too ahaan' (meaning food cupboard) in the cooking area. Light weight cupboards that close tightly to keep cockroaches an mice out. Sometimes not tight enough for the ants so they place the four legs on saucers filled with water. All prepared food and left overs are stored in these cupboards. When asked why they not put it in the fridge they will tell you that will affect the taste.

[PeteC]

I agree about the expiration dates Mags in general. We focus on things like yogurt, cheese, fresh and UHT milk when buying, and also if left in the 'frig too long. UHT is the worst surprise sometimes. They have a shelf life of a year but I've gotten a few only 2-3 months old that were off. The bad thing is that you can't really smell it as it's a closed, sealed box. The surprise comes when you stick the straw in and take a sip. We also get rid of canned things that are a few months over the date and especially if there is swelling or dents, just to be safe. Freezer things stay in there until consumed, weeks, months etc. I had a turkey in there for a year and it still tasted great.

I'm really fussy when buying fresh meat or fish. Everything gets frozen for at least three days as my understanding is that will kill any live parasites and larva. Just an added precaution if the cooking doesn't get them. Pete

[migrant]

I'm really fussy when buying fresh meat or fish. Everything gets frozen for at least three days as my understanding is that will kill any live parasites and larva. Just an added precaution if the cooking doesn't get them. Pete

This was my rule too, until I saw some items in the freezer I swore I had thawed. When I asked the wife, and her Mom, they said they put it back in after they took out what they wanted (after it thawed).

I told them refreezing can be dangerous since it will allow bacteria in but got the "we always do this in Thailand" quote.

[STEVE G]

All prepared food and left overs are stored in these cupboards. When asked why they not put it in the fridge they will tell you that will affect the taste.

My ex-partner in Indonesia told me that she didn't put food in the fridge because it made it cold!

[JD]

If what has been defrosted is vacuum sealed (no air inside) you may get away with freezing it again, although, the quality of the meat is going to drop considerably. You would be better off cooking the meat and freezing the final meal.

Please, please, never defrost anything that is not vacuum packed on the side in the kitchen, always, always, defrost overnight in the fridge. This slow return to room temperature ensures the quality of the product will be as close as it was when it was frozen, if it was blast frozen then the chances of that are increased 100%. Always take chilled meat or defrosted in the fridge out to meet room temperature for at least one hour before cooking. This slow release of the meat to room temperature is well advised, in some cases (depending on the cut of meat in question) it can actually make the meat more tender.

Please do not think that freezing meat can stop any problems that may have occurred before your purchase, this is not the case. Frozen Pork and Poultry can have the fat content go rancid after only 6 months of being kept frozen. In simple words, Pork and Poultry still goes bad even when frozen.

The guidelines state that all meat should have a minimum, frozen, shelf life date. This guideline is different the world over and there is no clear cut off date in any country. I set my own based on packing and 'end consumer storage'. Basically, we vacuum pack everything, it is blast frozen and packed. The law says that all frozen meats must be kept at -18C. If done so then the BB date can be anywhere between 6 months to 1 year, but only providing those temperatures are adhered to. I understand most of my customers are keeping my products in the small freezer compartment that comes with their fridge, this will never maintain the temperatures needed to ever reach the BB date. As such we publish only 3 months on anything we sell, even though we are not obliged to do so under the current guidelines. The emphasis is on the purchaser to adhere to the information printed on the label, which is, keep frozen at the recommended temperature and consume before the bb date. Most small freezer compartments within a standard fridge never get lower than -5C. So all meats within that environment will have the fat content of that product start to turn rancid within 4 months.

In England you would have to buy 'stay soft' Ice Cream to be able to enjoy it straight from the freezer. In Thailand, every Ice cream you take from your mini Freezer incorporated within your fridge is always soft and ready to eat. If you have experienced this, then be aware that these low temperatures have an effect on the produce you keep within, do not be blinded by the 6 or 12 month BB date on your meat products. Get a permanent marker and add 3 months from the day you purchased the product, as your own BB date, and you will be fine.

[PeteC]

I bought an Electrolux double door frig here that has a very large separate double door freezer compartment at the bottom with its own electronic temp control. Really great unit and does get ice cream hard as a rock. I had bought a chest freezer at the same time when we were furnishing the house but sold it as really no need with the capacity of the frig freezer. Pete

[Takiap]

The freezer in our fridge also gets ice cream rock hard, and in fact turns water into ice within about an hour. Not sure how that measures up, but I can't really see myself ever needing to store meat for such a long period of time. I buy meat once a week - about 6kg. We cut it up, bag it and then freeze for use throughout the week.

Just as a matter of interest.......how old is meat in general by the time it arrives on the shelves in the supermarkets? I did notice, on more than one occasion when in the UK, that fresh chicken bought at Asda would only keep for about two days, which seems to suggest it's not too fresh by the time it reaches the shelves. After all, you can slaughter a chicken and let it age for a good few days before even freezing it and you have no problems. Just curious.

[PeteC]

Someone told me once a rule of thumb for chicken is maximum 6 days in the frig before cooking and 6 days after. That was in the West and assume the chicken very fresh when bought. Pete

[margaretcarnes]

Good advice there from the man who knows - JD!
Re freezers bought in Thailand - the fridge/freezer combos - I don't recall seeing them star rated? Maybe they are now and I just haven't looked. Either way the only way to be certain about freezer performance is to buy a thermometer for the job, especially where there can be frequent power cuts.
The Asda chicken question is a new one on me though. Fresh chicken shelf life in UK supermarkets certainly isn't very long, but 2 days seems odd. Usually getting any stuff from the back of the shelf produces items with the longer shelf lives - but there are issues in the UK at the moment about the shelf life dates of fresh foods provided via home delivery services, and Asda isn't coming out tops on that.
Thai ways are often best - buy fresh every day and eat it quickly! Easy when there are such good wet markets - flies and all