Living in Thailand

[Super Joe]

If you're a person of high organization who demands all i's dotted and t's crossed, this place will drive you to insanity. In essence you'll be entering a realm where you are a racial minority and treated as such. Although your spending power will bring smiles and perceived friendship, it's seldom sincere. If you can't let all that and may other things here roll off your back like water off a duck, you will have a hard time.

I've seen so many foreign men as they get older and when the newness of this place wears off, lock themselves away in their castle with little desire to be part of society here. They simply can't or won't adapt, and see no value in even trying.

Absolutely agree, if you can't adapt and accept some of the negatives that Pete articulates well, then yes, it's gonna be a ball-ache. Is that something that applies to North American's and maybe Aussies a bit more though, and I don't mean anything snide by this, I think the current affairs threads show I'm not anti at all, but I get the impression you're far more demanding of, and vociferous about personal rights. And nothing wrong with that per se, but Thailand is not too compatible in this respect. And about 'shut away in the castle' thing, I noticed that since day one here about how few, really few, expat Amercians/Canadians are regular bar hoppers. Unless that's a cultural thing in that Brits are always trying to get down the pub away from the missus.

Retirement should mean freedom to do what you want to do, carefree. Here it seems that we always have to be on guard. Will someone initiate an intentional fender bender, then I'll be extorted by him and the police. Will I be stopped and questioned at every expressway toll booth simply because the MIB see a foreigner and an easy mark. Do I have to worry when on a trip that a hotel has reported my presence and I have to run like a rabbit when home to do a 24 hour report. As said many times before on here, they tolerate our presence and welcome our money with open arms, but they certainly don't make life here easy or very welcoming for us.

See I do think I have far more freedoms here than in the UK, sure I get a bit pi$$ed off with the petty fines for no hat on the motorbike (my fault), immigration rules, land ownership rules, some banking restrictions and the like, but they don't tip the scales. They certainly don't outweigh that I can go out at 2am (only an hour to go now ) for a drink, and drive there and back without worrying about being pulled over or breathalised. Back home that would mean two cab fares to Richmond and back, 2,000 Baht, so if I get an unwarranted 200 Baht fine for something or other, it's swings and roundabouts overall.

That you can usually pay a modest enough fee if you've transgressed the law, that 5k means you don't really need the 400/800k show money in your bank, not get hounded by the government for taxes/VAT, that you can buy property in 1 hour at the land office without requiring lawyers... I'd save more money there on lawyers charges than I've ever encountered in any everyday corruption or scams added together. After buying the land you can start building any house you like the next morning and worry about local authority 'permission' later. Despite stuff like land ownership, the Foreign Business Act and visa/long stay rules, there's always some 'workaround' or other.

I really like not having to wear socks or pants anymore too, not having to dress up for any restaurants/clubs, how safe Hua Hin is, I wander around areas where there's groups of pi$$ed Thais and as long as you're respectful and smiley I've never encountered any hostility. The discrimination/dual-pricing thing cuts both ways to a certain extent sometimes, I've been let in entertainment places that turn away, question or frisk/search Thais, many a bar that won't let a small group of Thai lads in (sure they're only letting me in to spend money but why do I care). And I've been places that actually charge Thais to get in but not charged me (cos they think they're gonna buy one drink to last all night).

There's aggravation with things like language barriers and untrained staff in the local stores, but then they deliver the washing machine to your door, carry it round the back and plumb it in. They wouldn't dream of that back home, you do it yourself or pay a plumber 5,000 Baht to do it. Swings and roundabouts, but mostly the smiling females swing it for me, and with that I'm off to the karaoke area.

SJ

[migrant]

And about 'shut away in the castle' thing, I noticed that since day one here about how few, really few, expat Amercians/Canadians are regular bar hoppers. Unless that's a cultural thing in that Brits are always trying to get down the pub away from the missus.

I think you're right SJ

Us Yanks enjoy our drinks, but our culture is not so much a "head to the pub" most evenings. When I was in college we did, but pretty well stopped that after. Not sure why, always enjoyable! Maybe due to geographic differences? The closest bars from me are 25 minutes away.

Much of what has been said here are reasons we are going to Thailand even with the downsides.

Some observations about here;

1) Living here in Southern California, and not being a materialistic person, one can easily be looked down on.

I drive a 8 year old car that I have kept in good shape, not because I can't afford one, but because I like the comfortable, dependable, car I have. In Southern California if your car is a couple years old, and not one of the expensive autos, you are looked down on.

2) At the grocery store today the checkout clerk talked non stop with the bag boy, basically ignoring me.

3) Between the IRS, the state, all the rule makers here, I feel I always need to look over my shoulder.

4) Yes, I have a vote here, but the political system is so messed up (my opinion) that I don't feel like it does any good

5) The nickel, and dime, expenses, penalties and fines here are much worse than what I have seen, and read, in Thailand.

6) The property taxes I pay here on my house is very expensive yet my calls to have a street light replaced are 3 months waiting so far.

As my Wife says, "At least in Thailand we know where we stand"
I can deal with that!!

[Siani]

And about 'shut away in the castle' thing, I noticed that since day one here about how few, really few, expat Amercians/Canadians are regular bar hoppers. Unless that's a cultural thing in that Brits are always trying to get down the pub away from the missus.

I can never understand why some men get married at all
Why do some men always need to "get away from the missus?" Are they bored with their company? It always baffles me
If my husband went down the pub every night on their own and out until 2 am (later) I would not consider my marriage good. Why bother to marry at all

[hhfarang]

Enough has been said and some really good stuff so I won't write a book (though I could and often think of doing so) about moving here.

A couple of things Pete said ring particularly true for me.

If you're a person of high organization who demands all i's dotted and t's crossed, this place will drive you to insanity.

I'm like that, maybe even a little OCD... but that is my engineering background and way of thinking. This place can really make you crazy if you like things and people to be logical.

I've seen so many foreign men as they get older and when the newness of this place wears off, lock themselves away in their castle with little desire to be part of society here.

I've become much like that due to many reasons, primarily financial, but others too as the first few years here I tried to develop really strong friendships like I had back in the states and none have really developed... don't know why exactly, but it's partly because a lot of folks who expatriate here are social misfits or are running or hiding from something. Also, many of you will disagree, but Americans are not popular the world over and I got damned tired of defending my country.

As I said, I am a little OCD and am a meticulous planner... to the point that I make spreadsheets about almost everything from the TV schedule to the weekly shopping list to the monthly budget, and even though I researched and planned this move for five years before I did it, I still made way too many mistakes.

Just make sure you figure out how much you need in savings, how much you need to live each month, then double those figures. Also, you need a plan for health care. Things are not nearly as cheap here as they were ten years ago, and I suspect that ten years from now the cost of living will be on par with the U.S. if the two country's economies keep going like they are now.... oh, and I ONLY moved here to make my wife happy... otherwise I would still be living in the good old U S of A!

[Arcadian]

I left the UK 8 years ago, not to Thailand, but 3 hours jet time from London so I get to see BBC and Sky news in the same time zone. Just to see the traffic reports and jams on my old route to work at Heathrow on the A40 convinces me I did the right thing. When I speak to people here on holiday they say how lucky I am, I tell them anyone can make the move, it just takes a little bit of courage, or desperation! 3 or 4 days back in London is enough for me.

[Super Joe]

Much of what has been said here are reasons we are going to Thailand even with the downsides. Some observations about here;

1) Living here in Southern California, and not being a materialistic person, one can easily be looked down on. - Yes, apart from showy Bangkok HiSo's you get at the weekends I find the successful Hua Hin Thais are happy to drive round in pick-up's or on motorbike, they may have a Merc at home but don't feel the need to drive it round town when the bike will do. Classic example is the Big Kiang boss, more than a millionaire based on the beach land he offered to the missus (as if we could), yet goes to work on a 10 year old motorbike carrying a packed-lunch in a tupperware box. Classic.

2) At the grocery store today the checkout clerk talked non stop with the bag boy, basically ignoring me. - You can get frustratingly unknowledgable assistants here, but at least there's a lot of them and they're very attentive. They always pack the groceries into bags in Tesco's and Villa Market, and VM always insist on carrying them out to the car for you. Miles better customer services here than London imho.

3) Between the IRS, the state, all the rule makers here, I feel I always need to look over my shoulder. - Most taxes here... Personal (PIT), Corporation, Value Added, Property sales, Property usage, Rental income (PIT) are self-assessment and/or based on much lower government appraisal values (bare minimums). If you're wife had a small business, to anything upto about 100,000 Baht/month you'd be a 'good citizen' if you contributed 2% PIT.
No inheritance tax, no separate captial gains tax (just PIT at source in Land Office at approx. 1-2% of properties actual value).

4) Yes, I have a vote here, but the political system is so messed up (my opinion) that I don't feel like it does any good.

5) The nickel, and dime, expenses, penalties and fines here are much worse than what I have seen, and read, in Thailand. - Police here do not target farangs it's the opposite imo (bar RTA's where you're likely to have to cough up), we're racially profiled out of police checks... we're waived through traffic stops because we're nice and clean as they rummage through the pockets and bikes of Thai 'druggies', ditto BKK/Pattaya bars/clubs while said 'druggies' go off to the toilet with paper cups. We're waived through hotel/housing security points we've never been, while Thais are checked upside down. Thais in there 20's-40's generally won't get served the non-OTC meds that we can get no problem, including kamag-gel We get preferrential treatment in Hotels/restaurants/entertainment establishments while 'poorer' Thais are looked at suspiciously, shouted at from reception staff asking where they're going.

A group of Thai men, if not dressed affluently, can get refused entry into certain city centre bars, or if they are let in they're not allowed to drink what they normally drink, their own bottle of whisky... in their own town centre Imagine the uproar back home in Piccadilly or Manhattan if locals were refused entry on the basis they were too poor and weren't gonna drink enough, or are let in but when you try and order your normal beer drink being told you can't drink that, order something far more expensive or leave. Thais are discriminated against on the basis of how wealthy they look in bars run by farangs (or Thai) here... and we moan about 20Baht to spend 6 hours in a National Park.
Rant over... my point is for every downside, there's usually more than a few uppers

6) The property taxes I pay here on my house is very expensive yet my calls to have a street light replaced are 3 months waiting so far. - If you own a 10m Baht house here, if not exempt on average you might pay 0.25% (of it's real 10M value) for property usage tax, due to their low appraisal values.

As my Wife says, "At least in Thailand we know where we stand". I can deal with that!! - Bet you won't be able to deal with their 'driving' though

Unless that's a cultural thing in that Brits are always trying to get down the pub away from the missus.

I can never understand why some men get married at all
Why do some men always need to "get away from the missus?" Are they bored with their company? It always baffles me

It's not that partners are all that boring Siana, but obviously it goes without saying they're more boring than mates and women you've never met before. Only kidding'ish. I guess it's just the variety thing, and I did say 'trying' to get the pub in respect that money, responisibilities, relationship, time etc makes it difficult, so it maybe a once a week thing. Whereas here I can spend most of the day with my wife, we work together, so it makes a nice change for me to spend as much time as humanly possible out of the house when it's dark.

I'm sure she wouldn't have it any other way, it'd be interesting to get her opinion of this though. Some time. She's Thai and regularly socializes with mates in the area, and British women certainly seem to be into their 'girls nights out'. In Hua Hin it's just so easy (5 mins on motorbike & park outside bar/restaurant), and cheap (compared to London anyway). Plus far more welcoming and unhostile compared to nights out back home where you're constantly wary of looking at someone the wrong way, or treading on someone's size 10 shoes... and that's just the women


SJ

[migrant]

SJ

Cheers for the responses!
I'm not going to try to quote, I'll screw it up!

You made my point perfectly! All countries have their downsides. The ones I mentioned don't make me happy, but that is life! Not to experience them in Thailand is unrealistic.

I have had better experiences in Thailand than So Cal, even driving!

On our drive from HH to Phuket-Krabi-Nakhon Si Thammarat-Surat Thani I was stopped, but waved through maybe a dozen police blocks and encountered more polite drivers than here in California.

[HHADFan]

Enough has been said and some really good stuff so I won't write a book (though I could and often think of doing so) about moving here.

A couple of things Pete said ring particularly true for me.

If you're a person of high organization who demands all i's dotted and t's crossed, this place will drive you to insanity.

I'm like that, maybe even a little OCD... but that is my engineering background and way of thinking. This place can really make you crazy if you like things and people to be logical.

Agreed. The chaos that was so charming when I was vacationing here, and even living in Phuket for six months, gets old when it feels inescapable. As you know, our backgrounds are very similar.

I've seen so many foreign men as they get older and when the newness of this place wears off, lock themselves away in their castle with little desire to be part of society here.

I've become much like that due to many reasons, primarily financial, but others too as the first few years here I tried to develop really strong friendships like I had back in the states and none have really developed... don't know why exactly, but it's partly because a lot of folks who expatriate here are social misfits or are running or hiding from something. Also, many of you will disagree, but Americans are not popular the world over and I got damned tired of defending my country.

I'm somewhat reclusive, but I always have been. I burned out on the bar scene a while ago, and for the last year and a half just went to some friends' bar for a visit about once a week. They sold the bar, so I rarely go downtown anymore. Americans don't really have a 'down the pub' culture, anyway, so I don't miss it.

I'm pretty involved with the gf's family and some Thai and farang neighbors. There are some pretty good people here and there. Definitely lots of weird folks here too, especially me.

America's a big target and kinda dominated the world for about 65 years. People are gonna take shots at it. Nothing anyone says in conversation in Hua Hin can hurt America, so why worry about it? I've met people from all over while living here and especially in Phuket (diving all the time) and in BKK and I've never had someone react in an unfriendly way because I was American. I've never discussed politics except with friends - and if we disagree, who cares?

As I said, I am a little OCD and am a meticulous planner... to the point that I make spreadsheets about almost everything from the TV schedule to the weekly shopping list to the monthly budget, and even though I researched and planned this move for five years before I did it, I still made way too many mistakes.

Just make sure you figure out how much you need in savings, how much you need to live each month, then double those figures. Also, you need a plan for health care. Things are not nearly as cheap here as they were ten years ago, and I suspect that ten years from now the cost of living will be on par with the U.S. if the two country's economies keep going like they are now.... oh, and I ONLY moved here to make my wife happy... otherwise I would still be living in the good old U S of A!

Some days I feel I'm only staying here to help get the gf's daughter through university. Some days I feel I could do that better and more happily from home. And some days I wouldn't want to be anywhere but Thailand.

BTW, SW engineers like us are almost by definition 'social misfits'. The good thing is, we don't have to run or hide.

[Jimbob]

BTW, SW engineers like us are almost by definition 'social misfits'. The good thing is, we don't have to run or hide

True, we engineers are cautious, considered, insightful, nothing wrong in checking your facts before the great leap. As far as moving to Thailand I would think back to some of Dale Carnegie's books and ask the basic question:
what is the worst that can happen? Then deal with that question. Everything else seems less important. Maybe

[MrPlum]

Reasons why ex-pat life fails.

1. The husband falls out of love with his ageing wife and seduced by the promise of a nubile young Thai, starts straying from the reservation. Either she tolerates it (and the humiliation) or the marriage is over. This process is assisted by the fact that the social 'glue' that held the marriage together, back home, is weakened abroad. The husband eventually flies the roost.

2. With nothing to do, the husband (and sometimes the wife) hit the bottle. A few glasses of wine every evening becomes 2 bottles, until a few years down the line, 'hic!' she's a lush and he's a hopeless alcoholic. Boredom can be a real issue.

3. The 'gin and tonic' set sell their pad in London and have a party for 10 years on the proceeds. They refuse to rein in their spending because they are having such a great time and the money eventually runs out.

4. The wife becomes homesick, for family and friends and wants to see their children grow up. End of adventure.

5. Illness or family problems force a return home.

6. The couple make the mistake of listening to miserable old buggers who convince them the country is corrupt, every Thai is a thief and the government are hell bent on ridding the country of all foreigners. Depressed they return home to realize the reasons they left in the first place are just as valid.

7. The couple's retirement dream is destroyed by criminal property developers who rip them off without a shred of mercy.

8. The couple launch their dream on a shoestring. The first sign of financial trouble and its back to Blighty to stack shelves at B&Q.

9. The couple think permanent residence will be the same as their holiday experience. Disillusion sets in when they find it is not.

10. Lonely middle-aged man falls head over heels with the first Thai girl he meets. To everyone else, she looks like a hard-core prostitute, who has been on her back since 12. To him, she's the stuff of dreams. Disaster is assured. He convinces himself she is not like the others even as she gambles his house away, burns through 100,000 thb every month or still 'works' while his back is turned. Wounded, he flies off to Angeles City to repeat the cycle until he finally 'wakes up' from his delusion, broke, with his spirit crushed.

11. They abandon the UK to escape drunken, tattooed, violent thugs with ear-rings and beer bellies, going 'fcuk, fcuk, fcuk' every other word, only to discover they've all flocked to Pattaya. In shock, they sell their Jomtien condo and flee to Hua Hin.

12. They refuse to learn the language, assimilate or treat their hosts with respect, (even though they may not deserve it). Instead they 'mank' and complain at the food, the rats, the snakes, the dogs, the driving, the bureaucracy, the corruption, the heat, the mosquitoes, and on and on... Why on earth they came here in the first place, is beyond me. These people will be miserable no matter where they are.

13. The hard core bar-fly is literally 'shagged out', after spending the last 15 years working his way through every bar girl that possesses a pulse. He's become an empty shell of a man, body and mind addled through booze and a loss of Zinc. He'll still be trying to dip his wick when he's 90, but getting no real pleasure out of it. It's just become part of his routine. He spends his time telling others how 'no bar girl' is going to rip him off, little realizing he's lost all respect for himself, along with respect for women and is now nothing but an empty shell. You look into their eyes and these men are already dead. Their conversation revolves around which girl gives the best blow job and how they never pay more then 500 baht for 'short time'. They can never go back to 'civilized' life. They are 'institutionalized' into the bar girl scene.

As for those who don't socialize, they may be natural introverts, comfortable being alone. Or suffering a sense of isolation, due to clinical depression. Wandering around Market Village fills in some of their empty hours.

Abroad, establishing true friendships can be difficult, when it seems that people are only your friends while you are buying the beer. On the other hand, people can be more open to friendship here because loneliness can break down class barriers. You have to make the effort. Joining a golf society or a painting class can help. I think there was a previous thread on here about boredom.

Having had my share of disappointment in life, I'm now pretty content. But I no longer rely on others to 'make' me happy, (as if anyone could). Romantic flings are fantastic but they don't last. Escaping to foreign climes, is terrific adventure but the effect doesn't last. Drowning one's depression with booze works for a while but alcohol is a depressant in itself, so that doesn't work either. I think some people escaping abroad are escaping themselves. They are looking 'outside' for answers, when they need to stop and look within.

If you set your expectations realistically, you can be happy. If they are unrealistic, you will be unhappy. I am enjoying life in Thailand but I know from hard experience that there are no guarantees in life and my attitude can change in an instant. A motorcycle accident, the g/f running off with someone with more money or the police scamming me for 200k (or go to jail).

I know the risks and accept them. Isn't that what we all do?

[Jimbob]

I feel depressed after Mr Plums comphrensive post. i need a drink

[pitsch]

Me too and I need a nubile young Thai

[MrPlum]

Sorry gents. Didn't mean to depress you.

Do you remember we ran a poll, about a year ago, asking if people were generally happy in Thailand? 80% said they were.

I was one of them.

[Siani]

Reasons why ex-pat life fails.

1. The husband falls out of love with his ageing wife and seduced by the promise of a nubile young Thai, starts straying from the reservation. Either she tolerates it (and the humiliation) or the marriage is over. This process is assisted by the fact that the social 'glue' that held the marriage together, back home, is weakened abroad. The husband eventually flies the roost.

Wow, I think we are all in the doldrums now! Mmmm the ageing wife syndrome I will have to watch my step lol
Someone sent me this link....
This was quite interesting about a man Carl....it is amazing how many Carls you can spot in Market Villa. They are normally near the biscuits. They normally have an adorable young lady on their arm, looking bored.

http://www.australianvisathaigirlfriend ... -thailand/

[PeteC]

I feel that many of us don't get out enough and start to get cynical about many things here, me included. I had a great experience yesterday, although simple, that put a smile on my face, made me shake my head in amazement, and got me angry all at the same time. I need to do it more often!

I went to get a haircut and then to a small restaurant next door that had a special on San Miguel original pale lager, which I hadn't had for quiet some time. Sat down and enjoyed three bottles, and this is part of what I saw:

1) An old man about 80 across the street in his boxer shorts hoeing the ground for no apparent reason. It's about a 1/2 rai lot, he doesn't own it and nothing is growing there. He just kept moving dirt and rocks using little force and seemed to be enjoying himself. Perhaps a displaced farmer now living with his kids in town in his old age and simply reliving his memories.

2) Women lovingly sprucing up a small Chinese offering temple. The place is spotless compared to its surroundings and you could see and feel the joy they had keeping the place pristine.

3) A greasy thug stopping in the middle of the soi to meet a motorcycle coming the other way and quickly exchanged a plastic bag of pills for an envelope of what I assume was money. For sure a yah bah deal, and right out in public in the middle of the day.

4) A mentally challenged man (again only in boxer shorts...must be the dress of the day ) who kept walking up and down the sidewalk and each time he passed me he said "F%$k you". The fourth time I actually laughed at him, and he went away.

5) The area mobile vegetable vendor arriving at the restaurant and the fat Thai cook coming out dressed out in his stained kitchen whites, and haggling loudly for 20 minutes about prices, and then stocking up on what was needed for the evening menu.

6) An oversize truck carrying a huge earth moving machine that obviously took a wrong turn onto this particular road, and got stuck in the overhead wires. The keystone cops showed up and the saga was still going on when I left, with traffic backed up forever with people trying to make u-turns in the street to get out of there.

7) A new girly bar that had just opened across the street named The Monkey Bar, with the girls wearing monkey masks and jumping up and down to try to attract customers.

8 ) The loving scene of small Thai school children walking home hand in hand with their mothers or friends, smiling and laughing all the way.

This was all in 45 minutes. A slice of life the likes of which you'll see nowhere else, and reminds me of some of the reasons I came here, and am still here. Pete