Conflict in the Middle East

[Jockey]

Found a smashing article on the history/context/possible consequences and intentions of the current violence in the middle east. Have probably learned more about the situation than I could after watching CNN for the last two weeks. The author has been since removed from Google News for his views. Its hard work getting through it all but well worth it

http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=540824

[PeteC]

I haven't read the link yet but will try to this weekend.

Let me take a stab at the bottom line, this is the start of WW III? I believe it, and it just doesn't have to do with the ME. Look at Somalia, Sudan, Ethiopia, North Korea, Sri Lanka, India/Pakistan to a degree, China/Taiwan, and if you want to look deeper, developments with certain countries in South America, Russia/the Caucasses(sp), Turkey/Greece/Cyprus.

The special of the decade seems to be conflict. We need a second super power again to balance things so everyone gets back on-side.

We are sitting in one of the safest places in the world here, except perhaps for Austalia, New Zealand, Antartica and the North Pole. Pete

[buksida]

Great coverage here too:

http://atimes.com/atimes/Conflict.html

[Jaime]

We are sitting in one of the safest places in the world here, except perhaps for Austalia, New Zealand, Antartica and the North Pole. Pete

That is unless you go along with the prediction of some analysts I have read who foresee that the whole of SE Asia will be swallowed up by China!

[2dandan]

I have deleted my reply to this topic, as in hindsight I don't wish to become involved in a discussion which can inflame serious opinions on both sides.

A further tragedy occurred this morning. Let's hope for some sort of peace over there sooner rather than later.

[roberto]

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html


Is the best article I have found

[Jockey]

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html


Is the best article I have found

Quite a big read and one which I think I can understand and believe to be true, however, the article does not really condemn the current atrocities, it merely points out (if I read properly), there are Jewish influencies inside Washington which are creating US policy through lobbying. I have to think there is a lot more to the US/Isreal allience than that! What Israel is doing for the moment in Lebanon and the occupied territories (especially the Gaza strip) is completely unacceptable. The events in Lebanon reminds me of the Israeli invasion in 1982, which led to the terrible massacres in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps. Unfortunately there are very few protests from the International community against the Israeli attacks on civilians and infrastructure. I don't see much hope of improvement as long as USA backs Israel unconditionally (which they will continue to do while the Bush administration is in power). The most disappointing has been the lack of protests from the European countries. A very depressing situation indeed. The only terrorists at large in the world today seem to be the yanks, the jews and I am ashamed to say the Brits also. It seems they can do what they want to whoever they want and to hell with UN opinion. Our European leaders, however, are doing FA about the current conflicts involving these 3 and that is our biggest shame, afraid to stand up to the bullies. Like any decent thinking person I had sympathy for the jews as a race, but now all I harbour for these thugs in power who are making these decisions is total abhorrence for the brutal and systematic killing of the Palestinian and Lebanese people - with an aim of total obliteration of these races. All of this backed and supported by the US and Britain. Despicable bstrds the lot of them. May they rot in hell. Fresh off the presses from Rome, the "leaders" of the "free world" have just given the green light for the Israelis to continue bombing a sovereign nation. All that blood on their hands, and no condemnation of this brutal example of the continuation of Israel's policy of dehumanising those who it took land from (forcibly in many cases) since the Zionist State came into existence without the acceptance of those who lived on the land at the time. My heart weeps for those people. As for Europe, what a shower of puppets. What do the Israelis have to do to draw any sort of criticism? They have brutally killed hundreds of civillians, bombed hospitals and infrasctructure, invaded another nation, killed UN observers despite being warned and have now bombed and slaughtered refugees in a refugee camp. What is the International community for? Supporting the rule of tyrants?
Unbelievable!

[Jaime]

Well, this is a very heavy subject and nothing to do with Thailand but all I can say about it is that when I saw the images of all those lifeless bodies of young children being brought out of the wreckage at Qana I felt a deep, deep sense of shame at the tacit approval of it by our UK government. I have often disagreed with policies but never felt that before. Deep shame, embarrassment and disgust.

I can't say much more than that without being drawn into ever more emotive debate on the subject, except that it would have been interesting to see how the US government would have reacted if the UK had decided to destroy Dublin on the pretext that the Irish state harboured terrorists during the height of the troubles during the 70's and 80's. Of course, much of the funding for those particular terrorists came from the US.

[caller]

I thnk the "silence" from the rest of the western world has more to do with the fact we have Iran/Syrian sponsored and armed groups attacking Israel, daily lobbing over the missiles they have been armed with, just as Israel are doing, but with less effect and the bigger concern about allowing a part of a Lebanese "democracy" acting with complete disdain to the rest of the Country and its own elected parliment. I don't think democracy means much to these people?

The stakes are a lot higher and as Hezbulloh (scuse spelling), said yesterday, they have been planning this for many years, I think I read six?

For sure its terrible whats going on, but I don't think this is just about Israel, this is about raising the stakes worldwide, the propoganda in the muslim countries etc.

I think western powers are aware of that and thats why the response hasn't been so knee jerk as would normally be expected.

There obviously has to be questions asked about the proportionaility of Isaels response, but this started because in Gaza and the the Lebanon, three Israeli soldiers were kidnapped. Return them, stop lobbimg misslies over and this would stop. Hezbullah has no interest in that.

Quite frankly I'm always staggered at the callousness of these extremists towards loss of their own peoples lives, but thats a culture issue and one that most western societies struggle to come to terms with.

I think the anti-American and "Jewish" rants are puerile.

At stake here is the reality of an economically wrecked and politically bankrupt Iran becuase of the last president who got in against all the odds. Get him beat, change the route Iran is heading which is wafer thin in its support and you have a big mood shift in the whole area that would directly affect Syria and the Lebanon and isolate other areas.

If only it was as simple as stopping Israel?

[Jaime]

Trying hard not to get dragged into this but Caller, if they could read it, I'm sure your eloquent analysis would come as a great comfort to the population of Lebanon! Worse than that, Israel will achieve nothing through this action. If they do it will be the first time ever that military action on their part has created any semblance of security for their borders. They have learned nothing and neither have we. And as for diplomacy! To describe Condoleezza Rice as a diplomat (America's leading diplomat apparently) is really stretching the definition. This US administration simply does not understand diplomacy unless it involves adding to the long list of US vetoes against UN resolutions against Israel, whilst prosecuting a disasterous war in order to execute a single one against Iraq. It just doesn't add up and there is an ever widening credibility gap for the US and its undeniably powerful Jewish lobby in what passes as middle east politics.

That's hopefully my last word on this or I'll end up posting something I regret.

[HansMartin]

Key Republican breaks with Bush on Mideast
Nebraska's Sen. Hagel calls for immediate cease-fire

Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Nebraska, called the current crisis in the Mideast "madness."

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Urging President Bush to turn all U.S. efforts toward "ending this madness," a leading Republican senator Monday broke with the Bush administration and called for an immediate cease-fire in the Mideast.

"The sickening slaughter on both sides must end and it must end now," Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel said. "President Bush must call for an immediate cease-fire. This madness must stop."

The Bush administration has refused to call for Israel to halt its attacks on southern Lebanon, joining Israel in insisting that Hezbollah fighters must be pushed back from the Israeli-Lebanese border.

President Bush Monday in a speech in Miami Beach, Florida, reiterated his call for a cease-fire in the Mideast only if it brought a "long-lasting peace" that addressed Iran and Syria's support for Hezbollah, the Islamic militia that Israel is targeting.

Hagel said that refusal threatens to isolate the United States and Israel and harm chances of achieving a long-term peace in the region.

"How do we realistically believe that a continuation of the systematic destruction of an American friend -- the country and people of Lebanon -- is going to enhance America's image and give us the trust and credibility to lead a lasting and sustained peace effort in the Middle East?" asked Hagel, the No. 2 Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Calls for 'a statesman'
He called on Bush to name "a statesman of global stature" as his personal envoy to the region. And he urged the administration to open direct talks with Hezbollah's backers, Iran and Syria, both of which Washington also accuses of meddling in Iraq.

"Our relationship with Israel is special and historic," he said. "But it need not and cannot be at the expense of our Arab and Muslim relationships. That is an irresponsible and dangerous false choice."

Bush was headed back to Washington after a fund-raising trip to Florida, and the White House had no immediate reaction to Hagel's comments.

Like his frequent ally, Sen. John McCain of Arizona, Hagel is a possible GOP presidential candidate in 2008 and has been critical of the administration's handling of Iraq. But few members of Congress have broken ranks with the president over his handling of the Israel-Hezbollah conflict.

Calls for an end to the 20-day conflict have increased since Israel's bombing Sunday of the Lebanese town of Qana, which left at least 54 civilians dead. Hagel said the Israeli campaign was "tearing Lebanon apart," and the resulting civilian casualties and economic damage were weakening the country and bolstering support for Hezbollah, which the U.S. State Department considers a terrorist organization.

Hagel urged the administration to revive the Beirut Declaration of 2002, authored by Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah, under which Arab countries would have recognized Israel's right to exist. Hagel said that declaration was "a starting point" toward a regional settlement, but the United States "squandered" it.

'Bogged down' in Iraq?
Meanwhile, the decorated Vietnam veteran said the United States "is bogged down in Iraq," limiting U.S. diplomatic and military options. Last week's announcement that more than 3,000 more American troops were needed to reinforce Baghdad amid rising sectarian violence was "a dramatic setback," he said.

He said the 3-year-old war is wearing badly on the U.S. military, and that Iraq's fledgling democracy needs to take over more of its security responsibilities from American troops.

"This is not about setting a timeline," Hagel said. "This is about understanding the implications of the forces of reality."

GWB and Condi have no concept of diplomacy and are dragging the world further and further and further down a very dark path; and our government, by and large, is complicit. Finally somone broke ranks -- should be interesting!!


"Military madness is killing the country; so much sadness bewteen you and me" Graham Nash.

[fremdulo]

Just something else to consider … control of the petrodollar. Iraq was going to change over to the Euro … no further comment. Iran is changing over to the Euro. Guess who else is trying to dump the petrodollar … Chavez ring a bell? Makes it all predictable and inevitable.

[roberto]

I thought the posts in this section were excellent and great analysis but it raises a simple question; what do Bush and Blair see so differently from the rest of the world and lots of people in their own countries.

Is there a hidden agenda and if so what is it?

I am genuinely baffled as to why the two leaders use only weasel words to avoid resolving the violence. I cannot understand why all the qualifications about a ceasefire. If I was in the middle of a war zone then a ceasefire is better than nothing. I cannot understand too how destroying the infrastructure of a country leads to its people being a stable neighbour to Israel, surely it just breeds another generation ready to right their perceived wrongs. Or do they really believe that keeping the middle east on the boil is somehow in our best interests and that any excuse for Israel to enfeeble its neighbours is a good one. I genuinely believe that only a political solution can work so why allow all the violence. I know too that hezbollah are not a state and are a rogue organisation, but that is what makes Israels actions so abhorrent, its state terrorism which ignores all the international rules on proportionality. People in the uk and northern ireland grew sick to death of IRA bombs but we never fired rockets into the irish republic even though the IRA had weapons dumps all along the border on the Irish side. Dont forget too the IRA were honoured guests in the USA and got most of their funding there
So back to the question why do they see it so differently and is there a hidden agenda and if so what is it?

[HansMartin]

If it only were a hidden agenda, then possibily something could be done. It really comes down to the following chracteristics of the Bush administration
1. Incompetency
2. Stupidity
3. Arrogence
4. A naive belief that God (aka Jesus) is on our side

I have no idea how Blair, a seemingly intelligent man, got drug into this mess.

[Guess]

If it only were a hidden agenda, then possibily something could be done. It really comes down to the following chracteristics of the Bush administration
1. Incompetency
2. Stupidity
3. Arrogence
4. A naive belief that God (aka Jesus) is on our side

I have no idea how Blair, a seemingly intelligent man, got drug into this mess.

I believe Bush and Blair are just figureheads. They are both advised by a whole entourage of advisors who make the real decisions. These advisrors would mostly come from military intelligence but also from the money men. In the event of another war with a middle eastern or stani power or a coallition of many the US and UK would need a base in the region. The most reliable would be Israel. By withdrawing support now they could become exposed in the future. It is not certain what the motivations of the so far friendlyb middle eastern nations would be in the event of another attack on a Muslim power.

Both the US and even more so the UK have very powerful intelligence networks and are party to information that even other Nato countries do not possess. So a hidden agenda is almost certainly what the administrations are working to and I believe that is more than just the control of oil.

The worrying fact is that the connections could reach much further afield and include even China and North Korea. Iran has already been earmarked as the next target. With the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan and some strengthening of reactionary groups in the ex Soviet Union Stan countries the US domination will take them right to the borders of China. This could be viewed by the rapidly growing Chinese Nation as being a threat to them. Any action in North Korea would strengthen this concern even more.

Currently it looks like the stage is being set for the long awaited Third World War.