Champions League 2006/07

[Big Boy]

Thai Tam,

I've never claimed the English Premier League to be the best in terms of skill. However, for money that can be earned, it takes some beating.

What I did say was that the Celtic players will play out of their skins when they play one of these top sides in the hope of being discovered. Whether it be Celtic in the Champions League, or Exeter City in the FA Cup, players who are playing in less unfortunate circumstances will excel themselves when they play against a team from the English Premiership in the hope of being discovered, and hopefully being given the opportunity of earning better money. I am not trying to put Celtic in a league beneath where they are, I am just stating it as it is.

Maybe if Guess' suggestion of a combined league were taken up, the Celtic board would have the incentive (and the additional money) to improve. Currently, the only real challenge Celtic have is to finish above Rangers in the Domestic League; and to try to excel in European competitions. However, if Celtic had a team that could really excel in Europe, the Scottish scene would be a farce. It would be similar to Manchester United playing in the local Sunday League. The player's own standards would also drop very quickly because they would not need to play well to win.

We hear of these Celtic superstars time after time. Take Liam Miller as an example. He arrived in England with a fantastic reputation. However, he only managed a handful of appearences (22 in 2 years) at the higher level. He did manage his first goal against the might of Crewe Alexander. He is now probably playing much more within in his comfort zone in the English Championship - a free transfer to Sunderland.

In your original posting, one of the players you mentioned was the goalkeeper, Artur Borac. It would be interesting to know which of the great Scottish goalkeepers you are comparing him against to make such a bold statement. As you will be aware, most English goalkeepers are not good enough to play in the English Premiership, I find it incredible that you believe a goalkeeper from the Scottish Premier League could hold his own. I will admit that I've never really seen him play, but with the reputation of Scottish goalkeepers preceding him, I would guess that he's quite good by Scottish standards. What makes you think he could make it in the big time?

[Thai Tam]

Hi Big Boy,

Thanks for your comments and again please accept my apologies in wrongly posting a response to Guess in your name - however, your comments on Artur Boruc betray a misunderstanding as Artur is currently the national keeper for Poland and has an incredible reputation with "crosses" and he is of course the Celtic N0 1: he did have the opportunity to join Arsenal but elected to join the Celts. As for the old jokes about Scottish goalkeepers all I can do is refer you to is Ronnie Simpson and Bill Brown - however, we do now have in Craig Gordon possibly one of the top keepers in Europe.

Your comments re Liam Miller are well made (remember he is Irish) as he should have stayed at Parkhead for at least three seasons to improve his technique and to gain a wider experience. His decision to jump ship was taken badly by Celtic fans after the way we looked after him over his injuries. For every Miller there is of course a Crerand, Macari and Mc Clair.

Anyway, I look forward to our three remaining CL games and seeing Celtic playing against other great teams and appreciating the
skills of their players.

Aw ra best,

Tam

[Big Boy]

Thai Tam,

I appreciate that Artur Boruc had the chance of playing number 2 to Jens Lehmmen, but rather than play reserve team football I can understand him moving to Celtic.

As for Ronnie Simpson and Bill Brown, I'm afraid they're before my time, but a little research on Google shows them to have been class acts.

I will admit that I have never seen Celtic win a game when I have been to watch them. However, I have been amazed at the passion shown by their supporters. I don't know if you're in the same classification, but those Celtic supporters I experienced were seeing a completely different game to the match I was watching. It is really very hard to explain the passion, but it could well explain your loyal remarks on this board.

As I have said already, I am totally neutral (it'll be a few weeks before my team are good enough to qualify for the Champions League), I do hope that Celtic continue their success, and move in to the next round with the other British teams - 5 teams to follow, has to be better than 4.

[Thai Tam]

Hi Big Boy,

Many thanks for your response - yes I guess it is hard for some one who is not "Celtic minded" to understand the bond between the club and the fans - as our club song says "if you know its history..." You could do worse than follow up on some of our history and this might explain the passion.

Maybe we can exchange stories of our respective clubs over a few beers sometime with Ken at Crawfords. I have great admiration for supporters of clubs who don't enjoy success but yet go week in week out to support their clubs. I was lucky to see one of the greatest club teams ever (i.e. the Lisbon Lions) but I also travelled to Parkhead through the 1990s when our fortunes were lost and Rangers won all before them on the home front.


Tam

[Guess]

Hi Big Boy,

..........As for the old jokes about Scottish goalkeepers........

Tam

And the best one of all is from Red Dwarf where they return to Earth a long time in the future and find that genetic engineering has crept in to sport. One of the world's leaders of this science are the very inventive Scots.

Scotland developed a golakeeper that was eight feet tall and 22 feet wide at the shouder and hips. However they still could not manage to qualify for the World Cup Finals.

[Jockey]

Jockey wrote:

Man U will lose at Parkhead on merit and may have to settle for second spot n the group.

Whilst I admire your loyalty to your home nation, you must admit that there is not a player in the Celtic team who Sir Alex could readily slot in to the Man Utd team.

There is such a vast difference between the English and Scottish Premier leagues these days. The only true hope that Celtic have is that Man Utd have a stinker, and the Celtic team play out of their skins. Such a scenario would be preferable in my opinion, because I will have to sit and suffer the match (my son being an avid - usually armchair - Man Utd supporter).

I think I should qualify my comments above - I will be truly neutral ie I have no allegience to either Scottish Football or Manchester United.

Finally, hating Rangers or not, I still believe it will be hard to forget that Celtic were the enemy.

Big Boy - sorry mate - can't you see you are perpetually being conned and brainwashed into thinking England players and teams are vastly superiour to all others. It's attitude and unwarranted belief like yours that continually make your nation a laughing stock on the world stage. Of course teams from the SPL cannot compete financially with teams in the EPL, but as Tam has said, Celtic are a special club that has continually held its own and won most games against higher rated English opposition and we have done so throughout our history.
Please tell me when the last English club actually beat Celtic over two legs? Its a hard question because it very rarely happens.
By the way - Celtic ALWAYS play out of their skins

[Big Boy]

Jockey,

I don't think I've ever said that English football is superior. If it were, then the Champions League trophy would be resident in England. I have simply stated that Football is a job. When I go to work, I sell my services to the highest bidder - its the same the world over. Now what I'm saying is if these guys were any good, they would have moved to where the larger pay packet was. Maybe they'll get there one day, but the fact is, they are still playing in the wilderness of the Scottish Premier League.

(as an aside) Do you not find it embarrassing that the leading Scottish Premier League goal scorer at the moment, couldn't even make it in the English Championship?

As for previous success, it is the passion to better themselves that makes the Scottish Teams play out of their skins in the hope of being discovered. It is this passion that makes the competition so good. If the underdogs were never given the chance to outshine their peers, there would be no competition. It would be more like the OSCARS, just vote for Europe's best team.

[Jockey]

Jockey,

I don't think I've ever said that English football is superior. If it were, then the Champions League trophy would be resident in England. I have simply stated that Football is a job. When I go to work, I sell my services to the highest bidder - its the same the world over. Now what I'm saying is if these guys were any good, they would have moved to where the larger pay packet was. Maybe they'll get there one day, but the fact is, they are still playing in the wilderness of the Scottish Premier League.

(as an aside) Do you not find it embarrassing that the leading Scottish Premier League goal scorer at the moment, couldn't even make it in the English Championship?

As for previous success, it is the passion to better themselves that makes the Scottish Teams play out of their skins in the hope of being discovered. It is this passion that makes the competition so good. If the underdogs were never given the chance to outshine their peers, there would be no competition. It would be more like the OSCARS, just vote for Europe's best team.

So tell me Big Boy... how many Croatia players would get into the English team? Perhaps you will avoid this question just like you did my last!

[Thai Tam]

Big Boy,

You really don't get it do you?

When it comes to playing for Celtic money is not the number one concern.

What is important is the opportunity to play for one of the biggets clubs in the world and to play in front (now) of 61,000 at every home game and to be supported by one of the most fervent sets of supporters in the game, as well as the prospect of playing against European opposition. Whilst we don't pay top wages, most of the players do ok financially - remember Roy Keane is reportedly to have been on £20k a week at Parkhead and he was reportedly to have received several higher paid offers from EP team yet he chose to play at Celtic.

To clarify Jockey's posting, leaving aside the British Empire Exhibition Trophy and the Coronation Cup,

ECWC 1966
Celtic 1 Liverpool 0
Liverpool 2 Celtic 0


EC 1970
Leeds Utd 0 Celtic 1
Celtic 2 Leeds Utd 1


UEFA 1987
Celtic 2 Liverpool 2
Liverpool 0 Celtic 0


UEFA 2002/03
Celtic 1 Blackburn Rovers 0
Blackburn Rovers 0 Celtic 2

Celtic 1 Liverpool 1
Liverpool 0 Celtic 2


ECL 2006
Man Utd 3 Celtic 2
Celtic ? Man Utd ?

Celtic Pld 11 W 6 L 2 D 2


Until last season's end of season fiascos at Coventry (yes I was there) and Newcastle - I think WGS now realises Celtic don't play friendlies - we were undefeated in 10 years in games in England against the likes of Arsenal, Man Utd, Liverpool, Everton, Newcastle, Leeds Utd, Fulham, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Leicester........our 1-1 draw at Chelsea at the start of this season put us back on the right track!

One of my most memorable experiences was when I attended an In-The -Round Rod Stewart Concert at the NEC in 1995 - I was right at the front of the stage wearing my Hoops and he came running across to me and told me to look up at the mega screen in time to see the Lisbon Lions against Inter in the 1967 European Cup final, his fist clenched in the air and he was singing PASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

QED


Tam

[Big Boy]

Jockey,

I'm not quite sure why we're talking about the English team in a thread about the Champions League, but here goes anyway.

Pound for pound, I don't believe very many of the Croatia team would have been worthy of a place in the England team. However, your question proves my point - they are looking to better themselves, and what shop window to display their wares but in a game against what should have been a class act. Their enthusiasm, better management and superior tactics won the game easily for them.

As for the English team, may I remind you of my posting following that game:

On 5 May 2006 I wrote:

Quote:
How do they expect a manager from a 2nd rate team, whose best achievement is to get to the final of the European Losers Cup, to lead our nation to victory in 2010?

I seem to remember his current set of loyal supporters screaming for his head earlier this season.

If you don't set your sights high enough from the outset, you can't expect to succeed

I rest my case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for the question I avoided, it was a bit of a non-question really. You could as easily have asked how many times had Plymouth Argyle lost in a FA Cup Final? The answer to my question would of course be never, because my team aren't good enough to get to a FA Cup Final.

Perhaps a fairer question would have been, in the Champions League how many times have Celtic progressed further than the champions of the English Premiership? Champions League clashes between English teams and Celtic are rare, and yes, Celtic have probably had their share of success. However, how many times have Celtic failed to even make an appearance or have gone out in the very early stages? You've got to stay in it to win it.

Maybe you can remind me how many times Celtic have met an English team in the Champions League? I've looked, and I can't find any recent Champions League clashes.

[Big Boy]

Thai Tam,

Our posts obviously crossed.

Roy Keane had already made his fortune in the English Premiership. His jaunt to Scotland was well within his comfort zone, and to be paid 20,000 pounds per week in retirement - I know what I would have done. Additionally, don't forget he downgraded from 67,000 passionate fans every week when he retired.

Thank you for the recent European results.

Firstly lets put this in to perspective. My initial comment referred to the money in the English Premiership - that eliminates all results prior to 1992. Yes Celtic had a side that could probably have competed pre-Premiership, but once the money arrived, Scottish football became a wilderness.

The Celtic successes since the Premiership started were in the Losers Cup, and although a credit to Celtic, do not really mean that much. Its a bit like my team winning the English 1st Division 2 years ago - it didn't mean they could compete with the big boys.

[Thai Tam]

Big Boy,

Squirm all you want, you just can't bring yourself 'round to concede that your assertions are based on a myopic view of Engurlun, Engurlun, Engurlun...... and you just can't give credit where credit is due.

You're correct with regard to the fact that as of late Celtic have let themselves down and that is exactly my original point, this team has an organisation, belief and flair that will see them perform much better than of recent in the CL and some of the young players will go on to establish themeselves with Celtic as top players.

As for losing in the UEFA cup final well I don't think many teams or their fans would appreciate your view of the tournament and simply because you have little regard for the English manager is no reason to belittle the UEFA cup - and I'll just remind you of who beat us in that final in Seville (and yes I was there), yes Porto who of course went on to win the ECL the following season with the same team.

In several of your posts you assert that players follow the money as this is their prime motivation - yet when Roy Keane moves to Celtic rather than pick up more than double his money he is in your view pursuing comfort: Roy Keane and comfort zone ???????????????- Roy made it quite clear that he was coming to Parkhead it was for the long term and to play in the ECL.

One thing I forgot to mention is that Alex Ferguson's dad (An RC) was secretary of the local Celtic supporters club, so maybe Alex does have a soft spot for us after all!!

Who knows one of these days we might elevate the main stand to the same height as the other three sides of the ground taking the capacity to over 80,000:

Largest Attendance for a European club match: Celtic v Leeds 136,505

Largest attendance for a club match in Europe: Celtic v Aberdeen 146,000

For my part this thread is now closed and I'll wait and see how things turn out on the 21st November - keep you eye for me: I'll be the guy in the green and white singing his heart out with joy, even if we are beaten......................Over and Over we will follow you.....

Tam

[Trotter]

Tam - "...Roy made it quite clear that he was coming to Parkhead it was for the long term and to play in the ECL..."

Just how many seasons was Keano at Parkhead?

More seriously, however, most readers must agree that Celtic will give Manure a good hiding in the return. Celtic are extremely lucky to have been drawn in such a weak group - Benfica are not the force they once were, and Copenhagen never were a force.

You and all Celtic fans must have jumped for joy when you saw the group.

Give Manure the walloping they richly deserve and the group is in the bag.

By the way, I am glad Keano did not come to Bolton. What size are your brown envelopes at Parkhead?

[Big Boy]

Well guys, all of the above banter aside, it looks as if we're going to be treat to the real thing when Celtic entertain Man Utd. Tonight's result has set the scene perfectly. No playing of reserves - no excuses - no generosity from Sir Alex - both teams need to win.

It should be a good game - let the best team win, and settle the above discussion once and for all.

[dane48]

FCK - MAU 1-0