The End Of Border Runs From Oct 1, 2006

[Wanderlust]

Hi everyone. I live here on a one year visa which I get because I'm married to a Thai and I have to leave the country every 90 days. This law in itself makes no sense to me but who am I to argue. Anyway, due to circumstances I was having to do the visa run for a while and having had three such stamps I was worried that I would be refused entry on my last run. At Ranong they were friendly as usual but did confirm that I can only do two more runs. This confirms that the copuntdown only started from October the 1st.

Takiap,
I am not doubting for a moment what Immigration in Ranong told you, but from my understanding of all the new regulations that came out,either you have misunderstood what they told you, or they have either totally misunderstood the changes, or are paving the way to extraxt some extra income from you, and others like you.
The changes made as regards how many stamps allowed consecutively had nothing to do with non-immigrant 'O' visas on the basis of marriage to a Thai; they were only aimed at the so-called 'Visa On Arrival' which is actually a permission to stay in the country stamp in your passport for 30 days. The stamp given in your (and coincidentally my) passport allows 90 days, and unless I am massively mistaken, there is no rule as to how many of these you are allowed to get consecutively, although in reality 5 is the number possible (as the visa will have expired after that many, including your first entry on it) giving you 5x90 days=450 days stay, before you have to leave the country and get a new multiple entry non 'O' visa in your home country.
What lomu says about extending a non 'O' is correct if you have the necessary income into or funds in a Thai bank coming from outside Thailand; otherwise you have to continue on the current procedure I have outlined. I must admit I was not aware that the 400k in the bank option was now not possible, and if that is the case does anyone understand the reasoning behind it? (Stupid question probably!).
On the overstay thing, I was not aware of any changes in the recent announcements, so as far as I am aware, as ricardo says if you leave from an International airport they won't charge for one day over. Certainly last December they didn't when I left. However 2 or more days will be charged fully. If anyone has any experience in the last couple of weeks on any of these things then it would be useful if they posted them on here. We can then find out what the likely scenarios really are.
One final question - a very unreliable source told me that the Dan Singkhon border (near Prachuap Kiri Khan) is now open for foriegners to cross on a visa run (please note I do not mean going to the Thai immigration office there and obtaining an extension as that has always been possible; I mean being stamped out of Thailand, then into Burma and out again, then back into Thailand) - can anyone confirm or deny this from personal experience? It has been a rumour for a long time, and would be great if true, but I have my doubts.

[sargeant]

Wanderlust whilst i agree with all you say i would like to add a note of caution

It has never made sense to me that they would crack down on VOAs and let all and sundry just change to 3 month non Os
and before i get clobbered i know in spades that thailand doesnt do things to meet falang standards of logic
However as i have said with all the non Os i have had over my time here i was never asked to produce any financial details at all. That according to people i am talking to is not the case any more.
Maybe it is the start of a slowly turning screw

I need to hear more and hope people will keep us informed because
I am being asked all the time and i dont like giving out half the story i just wish it was straightforward
I must also say i have learnt quite a lot from HHAD so thanks

[Guess]

VOAs and let all and sundry just change to 3 month non Os

Sorry to be pedantic here but the terminiology is often what leads to confusion.

There has been no change that I am aware of on Visa on Arrival. This is a legitimate Visa type that is not normally used by that 41 countries that do not have a 30 non visa right of stay.

What the topic is about is the 30 day "Visa Waiver" often known as the "VISA exemption". It is not a visa at all but will allow citizens from the selected 41 countries enter Thailand and get 30 days which expires when the rubber stamp says so. You can leave the country for five minutes and get another 30 days on your return, You can do this twice after the initial entry therefor allowing a stay of 90 days in Thailand. When you get the thrid exit you will be told that you will not get another entry for 90 days.

U have been told by Sing Korn that you can get a tourist single entry of a marriage, 4 or multiple entry, or a retirement visa or even a business visa if you show the correct paperwork but all from oputside of Thailand. For Non O based on marriage you have to show a regular income or a lump sum that must have come from abroad. However the interpretations vary from province to province, from office to office and even from official to official. A white envelope can help in some situations.

What is unclear is the situation regarding a renewal of the visa based upon marriage. I have been told that you only need to show money the first time but not for renewals and I have been told the opposite. In hav ebeen told that yoiu can get a furhter 90 day stamp in a local office and alos that you have to make a border crossing.

As for only being able to do three entries on a Non O is nonsense, unless you have a visa that specifies 3 entries. This would only be of use to someone who was planning to spend more than three months in on go out of Thailand during the life of the Visa.

All of these movements were in place long before Taksin resigned from office in April and I first heard of a restructuring of policy three years ago.

Th general idea is to make life easy for the honest business man who employees Thai people, the adequately funded retirees and those with Thai families. This reasoning though has yet to be proven and any new governmet could change it overnight. What they wan t is to get rid of the crooks that are milking Thailand of revenue. The biggest of all these crooks is the ex-PM himself. Other international gangs were oerating but many now have been rumbled. Many arrest have been made.

The TAT (not TRT as some have misunderstood) is well aware that the tourist industry is totally dependant on farang businesses to attract farang foreigners. They are aslo aware that the ex-pat retiree contributes a significant sum into the Thai economy.

If the Thais do not maintain this scenariao and improve upon it the Thai tourist industry will recede and Vietnam, Laos, Cambodoia and even Burma will gradually chisel away at is't market.

Maybe I am being too optimistic but I think not. The cunfusion and lack of information is just the Thai way.

I am sure that they will get there eventually bit they have a very large workload on at the moment. We just have to be paitient.

The 30 day Visa exemption unlimited repeat stamp was due to be abolished three years ago and they have only just got round to it. It made no sense whatsover anyway ans served only to keep a few mininbuses on the raos and give US dollars to the Burmese, Laos and Cambodians. It takes little imaginationto guess where those grey dollars ended up but I doubt if it got to the mouths of the poor.

[sargeant]

Guess forgive me if i am wrong but as i understand it not one single solitary rule or law has been changed.
This is as far as i know a determined effort on the part of thailand to have the existing rules and laws adhered to.
In the past the thai authorities have consistantly turned a blind eye to them and i agree they are all using different bamboo sticks to draw the line now

VOA 3 x entries max is the existing rule as i understand it
3 month Non O must show funds for duration of stay
1 year multi entry visa must be gained in country of origin and show sufficient funds

as i see them no change

[quote]Th general idea is to make life easy for the honest business man who employees Thai people, the adequately funded retirees and those with Thai families.

Agreed guess bang on as for getting rid of undesirables i agree with that to but i believe it will go further in typical thai slow time to mean if your funds dont come from abroad ?????????

Lastly i didnt realize taksin was on a VOA 3 month non O so how you find getting rid of him to be the reason for the crackdown a little spurious to say the least

[Wanderlust]

Can I just make it clear to anyone reading Guess and sargeant's posts that to obtain a Non-Immigrant 'O' visa, which is done outside of Thailand, there is no need to show evidence of any funds in banks whatsoever, only the relevant paperwork and the fee. However to extend said visa, if it is based on marriage, retirement (over 50) or any of the other relevant categories, you do need to show the stipulated funds coming from outside Thailand into a Thai bank account or a shared level of income (for a married couple) of at least 40k per month, and I believe higher for a retirement one.
Guess is correct that the terminology used varies enormously, including the immigration department themselves! That is why I tried to clarify exactly what I was talking about in my post and said 'so-called Visa On Arrival' because so many people use that term. I think this has come about because there used to be a huge sign in Don Muang airport saying this, right next to where people would go through and get their visa waiver.
sargeant, I believe that the announcements made over the last few weeks have been a combination of new regulations and an instruction to enforce existing ones; to confuse matters further a lot of these rules had been floating around as possible changes for a long time, as Guess has said. I still have never seen a really good, clear explanation of all the visas anywhere, and what I put on here is normally either from direct personal experience or from a normally reliable source. However I think there is always an effort by the authorities in Thailand to be deliberately vague with such things so that there is scope to allow exceptions, whether they are of the 'filled envelope' or genuine case variety! This is what I believe leads to most of the different stories you hear with apparently identical visas and circumstances, along with the knowledge or lack thereof of the individual officer you are dealing with. This will undoubtedly have been exacerbated by the recent changes.

[PeteC]

That is why I tried to clarify exactly what I was talking about in my post and said 'so-called Visa On Arrival' because so many people use that term. I think this has come about because there used to be a huge sign in Don Muang airport saying this, right next to where people would go through and get their visa waiver.

Not to confuse but to clarify, there are some countries who do not have a visa wavier agreement but can get a visa upon arrival. Those do have to go to the "visa on arrival" desk to get their visa. Then, there is another group of countries who don't even qualify for that, and need to get their visa in their home country before they leave, even for a 1 day stay in the Kingdom.

To answer possible thoughts, NO, those of us from the 41 countries cannot go to the "visa on arrival desk" and get a visa when arriving at the airport. This is only for countries as listed in the Thai regulations, primarily some trusted 2nd and 3rd world countries.

So, in summary:

1) Countries who enjoy the 30 day visa wavier.

2) Countries who can get a short visa upon arrival. I think the max was/is 10 or 15 days. These countries are not trusted enough to get a visa waiver. On some of the late night flights I've arrived on, I've only seen what I think were black Africans and South American groups lined up at this desk. After they got this visa, they still had to go through the normal immigration channel to have it processed.

3) Countries less trusted than #2 who have to get a visa in their home country, no exception.

Last is New Zealand who is or used to be in a league of their own. They got/get a 90 day visa waiver rather than 30. I don't think they are part of this new crackdown either. I don't know what the deal is, some very special agreement, perhaps reciprocal concerning rules for Thai's going to New Zealand. Pete

[lomuamart]

I've always viewed a visa as that "big one" that occupies a whole page of your passport.
This is different to the triangular stamp that everyone gets on entry. The triangular one is the important one - "allowed to stay in The Kingdom until" ..... etc etc.
Depending on the type and validity of the visa, the "allowed to stay until date" will vary.
The triangular stamp is the important one.

[sargeant]

Wanderlust i will only say that my friend whose experience I have documented on another thread (retirement visa new problems)doesnt gel .I agree in the past they never asked for any financial proof of funds. But on the 28th of last month in vientianne my friend armed with all his pension papers was refused a 3 month non O visa because he did not have a letter from the british embassey and couldnt prove his funds they subsequently issued a 2 month tourist visa . I like you did not expect that but advised him to take all his paperwork just in case.
He is now on a retirement visa. My other friend is off to ranong as i type he is taking his bank book just in case. I am saying dont be surprised if you get asked and dont be surprised at what they will expect as proof.

The rest of your post is bang on But i still dont see how any laws have been changed I do however see a (typicaly Thai ) change of interpretation/direction.

I will correct myself VOA is as guess and Prcscct says. i was sloppy but was refering to the 30 days visa waiver given at ranong etc.

Lomu i look at it the same as you the big full page jobby only says you can ask nicely at an entry point if you can come in. The triangular thingy says hello welcome hansom man get out on date stated.

[pookie]

What i find slightly disconcerting in all this are the actual figures mentioned
A monthly income of (shall we say?) TEN times the national average wage in Thailand, and/or an ammount approaching a lottery win for a Thai citizen
What i mean by the last part is.........ask a Thai what one of his/her dearest wishes would be and you might just hear him/her say "to win 1,000,000 on the lottery"
Falangs have to leave nearly that much "fallow" in a bank account !!!!!!!

Pookie

[sargeant]

pookie its weird innit but the one that confuses the crap outa me is as a single retired gentleman you need 800,000 a year to live but as a married man wth yaymonger rugrats you only need 400,000 a year i can only presume that
a they build in how much a single guy gets ripped off without a wife to protect him

or b they worked out how many bar fines he would have to pay for

Question for all will the 800,000 drop as the amount of viagara from ranong drops as per this thread, Will bars go bankrupt

[sargeant]

My mate got back from ranong 1 hour ago he has his 30 days but next to the stamp they have written a large figure 1 (one) and highlighted it.

maybe wanderlust or guess could answer this question

if my mate goes offshore before this visa is finished and stays away for 30 days will he get a big red 2 (two) when he enters again. Or will it be a big red 1 and start again

in other word is it only 3 consequtive and bye bye for 90 days or could you feasably have 30 days 30 days out of los 30 days 30 days out of los ie 6 seperate 30 days per year or only 3 per year maybe your contacts could clarify
maybe i havent worded it very well but i hope you get what i am getting at

[hogus]

Just a small update with regard to the issue of Thai-visa for farangs in the closer neighboring countries, from own experience and of a friend who has come back yesterday from Phnom Penh

Penang (Malaysia) just issue single-entry-visa from 1st of October.
It doesn't matter, if you apply for a non-imm "B", non-imm "O", "O-A", or just a tourist-visa.
You'll get a single-entry only in the moment.

The Thai-Embassy of Cambodia got order from Bangkok to reject the issue of any visa for the most EU-countries, Canada and US.
If you're a passport-holder of one of these countries you can't get a tourist-visa anymore.
In the moment it's just possible to apply there for a non-imm B, O, O-A (single-entry), if your paperwork is done correctly in advance.
The Officers of the Thai-Embassy aren't very happy with this new order, and are expecting a change in the next weeks.

Good news seems to be that the UK and Germany as first EU-countries have complained already about the new regulations, and have asked the Thai foreign ministry to screen the new rules once more.
Background seems to be that there isn't any difference about the treatment between illegal laborers from Asia and citizens of industrial nations, which are able to support their self financially.
(This info cames from an officer of the Thai-Embassy in Phnom Penh)

Hope this isn’t just a rumor!

[Guess]

Penang (Malaysia) just issue single-entry-visa from 1st of October.
It doesn't matter, if you apply for a non-imm "B", non-imm "O", "O-A", or just a tourist-visa. You'll get a single-entry only in the moment.

The Officers of the Thai-Embassy aren't very happy with this new order, and are expecting a change in the next weeks.

Funny that Hogus should post this just a mere 15 minutes after I have had a 4 hour long meeting witrh Prachuap Immigration. My main concern was my own situation. But in lulls in the procedings I took the opportunity to ask relevant questions to many different officials.

One told me that the Passport Holders Home country could offer a 12 month multi entry tourist visa. If I were a betting man I would back the staetment made by Hogus. However I think it may be in the pipeline.

What I was told ist ath radical changes were about to happen. (That could mean in the next two years in Thailand but hopefully this year.


Anyway the purpose of this post was to re-state the situation regarding tourist visas. I have now been told the same story by three different officials in varying ranks.

Anybody from the select countries (43 was stated on the flyer) can get a tourist vis from outside of Thailand. The closest to Hua Hin is Penang.

The visa is valid for 2 months (i.e. 25/10/06 - 24/12/06). The stamp on entry will be 60 days (i.e.one or two days less). You can then get it extended for 30 days in Hua Hin for 1,900 baht. You can then leave Thailand and return to Penang and get another and do the same thiong repeatedly for ever under current ruling. A loophole maybe but so was the repeat 30 days visa excemption scheme.

So those of you have who have using the 30 days visa excemption scheme as a method of living in Thailand can now use the tourist visa scheme for doing the same. This of course is on ly information supplied by Thai Immigration and has not yet been put to the test.

The difference is, in one year 4 journeys vs 12 journeys. The cost difference id marginal and depends of course on the method of travel in both cases.

If there was a choice I would take the tourist route anyway.

One warning about Penang though that someone has discovered to his loss today.

The consulate is not open during public holidays or at weekends (for public use) so check first. Three different religions are reckognised in Malaysia and the holidays of all are celebrated.

The other thing to watch is if you are not using and agent then make sure you get to the Embassy in the morning 09:30 - 12:00 with your submission. If they allow you to submit on Saturday morning, nothing will be done until Monday at the earliest.

If you are not sure Vien Chang (Vientenne Fr. is a better bet).

[Wanderlust]

Anyway the purpose of this post was to re-state the situation regarding tourist visas. I have now been told the same story by three different officials in varying ranks.

Anybody from the select countries (43 was stated on the flyer) can get a tourist vis from outside of Thailand. The closest to Hua Hin is Penang.

The visa is valid for 2 months (i.e. 25/10/06 - 24/12/06). The stamp on entry will be 60 days (i.e.one or two days less). You can then get it extended for 30 days in Hua Hin for 1,900 baht. You can then leave Thailand and return to Penang and get another and do the same thiong repeatedly for ever under current ruling. A loophole maybe but so was the repeat 30 days visa excemption scheme.

So those of you have who have using the 30 days visa excemption scheme as a method of living in Thailand can now use the tourist visa scheme for doing the same. This of course is on ly information supplied by Thai Immigration and has not yet been put to the test.

The difference is, in one year 4 journeys vs 12 journeys. The cost difference id marginal and depends of course on the method of travel in both cases.

If there was a choice I would take the tourist route anyway.

Guess, that is excellent detective work, but that was always the situation anyway - I was doing that about 6 0r 7 years ago, so that is no change. I could never understand why people were risking doing the run every 30 days, because there is no difference in terms of cost as you so rightly say. Even if you had to get a new tourist visa every 90 days in either Penang or Vientiane it would still work out pretty much the same. However, one of the changes I had heard of was that Tourist Visas were going to become a 90 day stamp on entry, rather than a 60+30 extension, which apparently the guys in Hua Hin/Dan Singkhon are not aware of. Maybe that change is not in effect yet or never existed.

[sargeant]

Either my question has stymied everybody or apathy has taken over

I am happy that i wasnt bombarded with conjecture presumptions and outright guesses and look forward to someone finding out the facts and posting them.

It does show however that the ostriches (it will go away brigade) are batting on a spinners wicket.

I have said from the beginning that if it happens it will have a long term knock on effect on all types of visas (i may be wrong but indications are so far that i am not)

I also believe that this crackdown is aimed at finding the falangs that are working illegaly and dont contribute cash from abroad to the thai economy but take Cash from the thai economy.

No govt from outside can argue that issue down so dont expect the eec or usa to come to anybodys aid if they are in the above category.

My and my mates experience on retirement visas with a pension from abroad is that it was made easy friendly and very helpful
Maybe an indicator of what they want perchance???????

However it seems the 800,000 cash lump is being well queried which points to my reasoning for the crackdown and as i have said before if your funds arent from abroad you could be in for a rough ride

It is sad and in some ways unfair but ar@#holes always spoil it for others

My only concern is that
A. some good people will become colatteral damage
B. When asked i would like to be able to give sound advice not some dodge or loophole which will sooner or later be closed