Iraq - what a mess!
WingNut: please explain to mewhy "this was the right choice, long term"...to invade a country that had nothing to do with 9/11...to slaughter so many innocent people...to create further instability in the region. Sure, Saddam was a bastard...but it he was a bastard of the US's creation, and there are so many "bastards" in the world one could deal with...why him, why now? Imagine what all that "military money" could have bought the world if spent another way...AIDS...Darfour...energy alternatives and innovation. No doubt, I am being idealistic...but Canada said "No" to Iraq and "yes" to Afganistan. I can live with myself for that choice. How will Bush and Rumsfeld (SP?) live with themselves? A good debate on this thread! Marry Xmas one and all!
Maverick
I said in my last post that i would expand on the lies told to the public because i knew someone would come up with the bad intel excuse which is Total BS
Fact wilson (husband of outed vallery plame) was sent by the cia to check out uranium sales to Iraq comes back says this is BS and is immediately pilloried for not giving them the story they want and his wife is outed as revenge and to shut him up
Fact Hans Blix on the first interview after the weapons inspectors were pulled out of Iraq stated we (the weapons inspectors) were
A. given unfettered access to all locations forwarded by langly virginia
B. that for over 1 month they (the weapons inspectors) Had become convinced there were no WMDs left in Iraq
These 2 statements were repeated on the oreilly factor a few weeks later.
Fact all the huge golf balls were listening in to every conversation the weapons inspectors made and cia weapons inspectors were reporting back directly to langly and therefore Bush and Blair Knew this in spades and still went ahead regardless
Even with all this information Rumsfeldt still stated "we know where they are and we are going to get them" a pack of lies if they knew where the WMDs were why didnt they tell the weapons inspectors where to go??
There was rafts of good intel only the bad intel was cherry picked and Bush and Blair lied
The weapons inspectors were pulled out to stop them informing the public of the truth
FACT no WMDs were found proof enough that they lied
Fact 600,000 people are dead if that isnt a war crime i dont know what is
Fact wilson (husband of outed vallery plame) was sent by the cia to check out uranium sales to Iraq comes back says this is BS and is immediately pilloried for not giving them the story they want and his wife is outed as revenge and to shut him up
Fact Hans Blix on the first interview after the weapons inspectors were pulled out of Iraq stated we (the weapons inspectors) were
A. given unfettered access to all locations forwarded by langly virginia
B. that for over 1 month they (the weapons inspectors) Had become convinced there were no WMDs left in Iraq
These 2 statements were repeated on the oreilly factor a few weeks later.
Fact all the huge golf balls were listening in to every conversation the weapons inspectors made and cia weapons inspectors were reporting back directly to langly and therefore Bush and Blair Knew this in spades and still went ahead regardless
Even with all this information Rumsfeldt still stated "we know where they are and we are going to get them" a pack of lies if they knew where the WMDs were why didnt they tell the weapons inspectors where to go??
There was rafts of good intel only the bad intel was cherry picked and Bush and Blair lied
The weapons inspectors were pulled out to stop them informing the public of the truth
FACT no WMDs were found proof enough that they lied
Fact 600,000 people are dead if that isnt a war crime i dont know what is
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
In answer to Guess I love you to deaf for bringing up Murdoch you got it in a oner that areshole who tried to get rid of the Monarchy tried to get Australia to become a republic so that he could become its President conniving with Keating and when that fell through and it went belly up became a US citizen with the aim of becoming the major Jewish stringpuller in the most powerfull country
On the WW11 debt i am 100% certain that we were paying right up to Maggies second reign when reagan cnx the debt
I would also point out that mr SOROS showed the brits exactely what the special relationship meant to americans It only required the US govt to buy pounds to stop him in his tracks they did nothing what nice friends
While i think you are tongue in cheek about the mojave desert i believe that until Isreal, a nation founded on US backed & funded terrorism is dealt with you will never stop terrorism because every recruit to a terrorist organisation can be told terrorism can win just look at israel look at NI
The US has funded and supported terrorism for their advantage all over the world all my adult life it is now coming home to roost
And the world is now a very dangerous place
On the WW11 debt i am 100% certain that we were paying right up to Maggies second reign when reagan cnx the debt
I would also point out that mr SOROS showed the brits exactely what the special relationship meant to americans It only required the US govt to buy pounds to stop him in his tracks they did nothing what nice friends
While i think you are tongue in cheek about the mojave desert i believe that until Isreal, a nation founded on US backed & funded terrorism is dealt with you will never stop terrorism because every recruit to a terrorist organisation can be told terrorism can win just look at israel look at NI
The US has funded and supported terrorism for their advantage all over the world all my adult life it is now coming home to roost
And the world is now a very dangerous place
A Greatfull Guest of Thailand
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HansMartin
- Professional
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:50 am
- Location: Back Home in CA
A mess and getting messier.
After reading the Iraq Study Group Report (which you can download on-line). GWB's spin was the situation is "Grave".
The ISG went a little further and said:
"Current U.S. Policy is not working, as the level of violence in Iraq is rising and the government is not advancing national reconciliation. Making no changes in policy would simply delay the day of reckoning at a high cost. Nearly 100 Americans are dying every month. The United States is spending $2 billion a week. Our ability to respond to other international crises is constrained. A majority of the American people are soured on the war. The level of expense is not sustainable over an extended period, especially when progress is not being made. The longer the United States remains in Iraq without progress, the more resentment will grow among Iraqis who believe they are subjects of a repressive American occupation. As one U.S. offical said to us, Our leaving Iraq would make it worse.The current approach without modificatiomn will not make it better.' "
On his way out the door Rummy said of the ISG Report's 72 recommnedations that there is nothing new there , we've heard it all before. What a f**in arrogant ass.
And George, Connie, and Dick -- the 3 last neocons left in the government have no clue what to do.
This frustration was neatly summed up by a Republican senator from Oregon who supported the war until recently. On the Senate floor he gave a speech Friday saying;
" I, for one, am at the end of my rope when it comes to supporting a policy that has our soldiers patrolling the same streets in the same way, being blown up by the same bombs day after day. That is absurd. It may even be criminal. I cannot support that anymore... So either we clear and hold and build or let's go home."
As the ISG Rreport stated clearing and holding is not possible unless regional diplomacy is given a chance and the civil war ends, and GWB won't take that step.
Well so much for a nice cherry day when you all wake up in the LOS.
After reading the Iraq Study Group Report (which you can download on-line). GWB's spin was the situation is "Grave".
The ISG went a little further and said:
"Current U.S. Policy is not working, as the level of violence in Iraq is rising and the government is not advancing national reconciliation. Making no changes in policy would simply delay the day of reckoning at a high cost. Nearly 100 Americans are dying every month. The United States is spending $2 billion a week. Our ability to respond to other international crises is constrained. A majority of the American people are soured on the war. The level of expense is not sustainable over an extended period, especially when progress is not being made. The longer the United States remains in Iraq without progress, the more resentment will grow among Iraqis who believe they are subjects of a repressive American occupation. As one U.S. offical said to us, Our leaving Iraq would make it worse.The current approach without modificatiomn will not make it better.' "
On his way out the door Rummy said of the ISG Report's 72 recommnedations that there is nothing new there , we've heard it all before. What a f**in arrogant ass.
And George, Connie, and Dick -- the 3 last neocons left in the government have no clue what to do.
This frustration was neatly summed up by a Republican senator from Oregon who supported the war until recently. On the Senate floor he gave a speech Friday saying;
" I, for one, am at the end of my rope when it comes to supporting a policy that has our soldiers patrolling the same streets in the same way, being blown up by the same bombs day after day. That is absurd. It may even be criminal. I cannot support that anymore... So either we clear and hold and build or let's go home."
As the ISG Rreport stated clearing and holding is not possible unless regional diplomacy is given a chance and the civil war ends, and GWB won't take that step.
Well so much for a nice cherry day when you all wake up in the LOS.
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The understudy
- Ace
- Posts: 1293
- Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:16 pm
- Location: Hua Hin, Bangkok, Berlin, L. A. rotating
[quote="sargeant"]In answer to Guess I love you to deaf for bringing up Murdoch you got it in a oner that areshole who tried to get rid of the Monarchy tried to get Australia to become a republic so that he could become its President conniving with Keating and when that fell through and it went belly up became a US citizen with the aim of becoming the major Jewish stringpuller in the most powerfull country
On the WW11 debt i am 100% certain that we were paying right up to Maggies second reign when reagan cnx the debt
I would also point out that mr SOROS showed the brits exactely what the special relationship meant to americans It only required the US govt to buy pounds to stop him in his tracks they did nothing what nice friends
While i think you are tongue in cheek about the mojave desert i believe that until Isreal, a nation founded on US backed & funded terrorism is dealt with you will never stop terrorism because every recruit to a terrorist organisation can be told terrorism can win just look at israel look at NI
The US has funded and supported terrorism for their advantage all over the world all my adult life it is now coming home to roost
And the world is now a very dangerous place[/quote]
i can agree with Sargeant says in the second Paragraph about Israel. I had been here in the US for a few month allready and last Month there was the biggest Jeiwsh council conference here in Los Angeles which Isrealy Prome Minister Ehud Olmert resided over.
I'm not against Jews no I'm not but the way the US is Portecting Isreal in the UN from Procecution right now. is just plain and simply absurd or Protectionism.
The US has so many Ghosts that they called upon and now can't get rid of them and some of it they reluctantly want to psrt with that the world is a much more dangerous wrold today.
The only Industry I can think of that would Porfit from this Mess in Iraq would be the Millitary and defence Industry which they in turn supply all the ammonition, Bombs, ect.
another aspect would be How Histroians would look into this when in retrospect about five to 10 years from now!
On the WW11 debt i am 100% certain that we were paying right up to Maggies second reign when reagan cnx the debt
I would also point out that mr SOROS showed the brits exactely what the special relationship meant to americans It only required the US govt to buy pounds to stop him in his tracks they did nothing what nice friends
While i think you are tongue in cheek about the mojave desert i believe that until Isreal, a nation founded on US backed & funded terrorism is dealt with you will never stop terrorism because every recruit to a terrorist organisation can be told terrorism can win just look at israel look at NI
The US has funded and supported terrorism for their advantage all over the world all my adult life it is now coming home to roost
And the world is now a very dangerous place[/quote]
i can agree with Sargeant says in the second Paragraph about Israel. I had been here in the US for a few month allready and last Month there was the biggest Jeiwsh council conference here in Los Angeles which Isrealy Prome Minister Ehud Olmert resided over.
I'm not against Jews no I'm not but the way the US is Portecting Isreal in the UN from Procecution right now. is just plain and simply absurd or Protectionism.
The US has so many Ghosts that they called upon and now can't get rid of them and some of it they reluctantly want to psrt with that the world is a much more dangerous wrold today.
The only Industry I can think of that would Porfit from this Mess in Iraq would be the Millitary and defence Industry which they in turn supply all the ammonition, Bombs, ect.
another aspect would be How Histroians would look into this when in retrospect about five to 10 years from now!
In Love with Hua Hin since 19naughty9 and it ain't fading!!!
(My fable for All Things Japanese knows no boundaries!) Proud Student of Stamford University Hua Hin Campus from 1999 to 2004 (5th Batch of Graduates.)
“Once you survive Stamford U Hua Hin Campus only you can survive anything!!!”
(My fable for All Things Japanese knows no boundaries!) Proud Student of Stamford University Hua Hin Campus from 1999 to 2004 (5th Batch of Graduates.)
“Once you survive Stamford U Hua Hin Campus only you can survive anything!!!”
I used to know historians at University.
The interpretation of events and those after the facts are all important. I couldn't understand that at the time all those years ago, but I've got a slight grasp of it now.
In a few days, it's year zero, isn't it?
And as for Murdoch. I worked on Fleet Street as he and News Corp busted the unions at Wapping. Great days - not.
Fortress Wapping, I knew friends there. BTW it was Eddie Shah who really did it - Murdoch watched, waited and pounced.
Dunno where this post's going - sorry, had a few beers.
Suppose it's up to us to make our own minds up - not be led to believe. Hence, travelling and being here.
The interpretation of events and those after the facts are all important. I couldn't understand that at the time all those years ago, but I've got a slight grasp of it now.
In a few days, it's year zero, isn't it?
And as for Murdoch. I worked on Fleet Street as he and News Corp busted the unions at Wapping. Great days - not.
Fortress Wapping, I knew friends there. BTW it was Eddie Shah who really did it - Murdoch watched, waited and pounced.
Dunno where this post's going - sorry, had a few beers.
Suppose it's up to us to make our own minds up - not be led to believe. Hence, travelling and being here.
I think we all agree regardless of root cause / conspiracy theories regarding the start of the war, Bush and co are tossers and should be tried for war crimes,
Yet they get away with it as there the leaders of the most powerful countries on the planet and can pretty much do what they want, that’s the more sad thing about it, even more so when there up there preaching what’s wrong and right all the time.
I’m sure the Americans eventually will get it across to Bush that he was wrong but the next sadist thing is he’s that bloody thick it will just go over his head and he’ll live out the rest of his life without a care in the world with Daddies cash
What to do!!
Yet they get away with it as there the leaders of the most powerful countries on the planet and can pretty much do what they want, that’s the more sad thing about it, even more so when there up there preaching what’s wrong and right all the time.
I’m sure the Americans eventually will get it across to Bush that he was wrong but the next sadist thing is he’s that bloody thick it will just go over his head and he’ll live out the rest of his life without a care in the world with Daddies cash
What to do!!
The biggest windfall in the invasion of Iraq has most certainly gone to the oil services and logistics company Halliburton . The company, which was formerly run by Vice President Dick Cheney, had revenue of over $8 billion in contracts in Iraq in 2003 alone. And while Halliburton ’s dealings in Iraq have been dogged everywhere by scandal – including now a criminal investigation into overcharging by Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown and Root for gas shipped into Iraq – Vice President Cheney manages to be doing quite well from the deal. He owns $433,000 unexercised Halliburton stock options worth more than $10 million dollars.STEVE G wrote:I think the companies name is Halliburton, which is very close to Mr. Cheney!The understudy wrote;
The only Industry I can think of that would Porfit from this Mess in Iraq would be the Millitary and defence Industry which they in turn supply all the ammonition, Bombs, ect.
Previously secret written evidence submitted to an inquiry on British intelligence failures in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq was made public, with a former diplomat alleging that "at no time" did the government assess that Iraq posed a threat to Britain.
According to the statement originally submitted by Carne Ross to Lord Robin Butler's 2004 inquiry into the intelligence relating to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD), Ross said that during his posting to the United Nations, "at no time did HMG assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."
Ross was First Secretary in the British mission to the UN from December 1997 to June 2002. He said that the preparation of the infamous dossier on Iraq's supposed WMD progremme began before he left.
The evidence was made public on House of Commons's Foreign Affairs Committee website on Thursday.
In it, Ross, who resigned from the Foreign Office in 2004 in protest over the war, states that "it was the commonly-held view among the officials dealing with Iraq that any threat had been effectively contained.
"I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed).
"At the same time, we would frequently argue, when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."
Neither Prime Minister Tony Blair's Downing Street office, nor the Foreign Office, commented on the evidence when contacted by AFP.
Ross went on to say that with the exception of about a dozen Scud missiles which were not accounted for, "there was no intelligence evidence of significant holdings of CW (chemical weapons), BW (biological weapons) or nuclear material" within Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
He continued: "There was moreover no intelligence or assessment during my time in the job that Iraq had any intention to launch an attack against its neighbours or the UK or US."
He added that, aside from Israel, none of Iraq's neighbours voiced concern that they would be attacked by it.
The former diplomat said that "inertia" within the Foreign Office and the "inattention of key ministers" contributed to Britain never making "any coordinated and sustained attempt to address sanctions busting".
Ross had been threatened that he could be prosecuted under British legislation that requires government employees to keep secret certain official information, particularly matters of national security.
Despite the risk of breaking the law, Ross told the committee in November that he would be "happy to share" the evidence he gave to the Butler inquiry as it had been weighing on his conscience.
He has since founded Independent Diplomat, a non-profit diplomatic advisory service.
According to the statement originally submitted by Carne Ross to Lord Robin Butler's 2004 inquiry into the intelligence relating to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD), Ross said that during his posting to the United Nations, "at no time did HMG assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."
Ross was First Secretary in the British mission to the UN from December 1997 to June 2002. He said that the preparation of the infamous dossier on Iraq's supposed WMD progremme began before he left.
The evidence was made public on House of Commons's Foreign Affairs Committee website on Thursday.
In it, Ross, who resigned from the Foreign Office in 2004 in protest over the war, states that "it was the commonly-held view among the officials dealing with Iraq that any threat had been effectively contained.
"I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed).
"At the same time, we would frequently argue, when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."
Neither Prime Minister Tony Blair's Downing Street office, nor the Foreign Office, commented on the evidence when contacted by AFP.
Ross went on to say that with the exception of about a dozen Scud missiles which were not accounted for, "there was no intelligence evidence of significant holdings of CW (chemical weapons), BW (biological weapons) or nuclear material" within Saddam Hussein's Iraq.
He continued: "There was moreover no intelligence or assessment during my time in the job that Iraq had any intention to launch an attack against its neighbours or the UK or US."
He added that, aside from Israel, none of Iraq's neighbours voiced concern that they would be attacked by it.
The former diplomat said that "inertia" within the Foreign Office and the "inattention of key ministers" contributed to Britain never making "any coordinated and sustained attempt to address sanctions busting".
Ross had been threatened that he could be prosecuted under British legislation that requires government employees to keep secret certain official information, particularly matters of national security.
Despite the risk of breaking the law, Ross told the committee in November that he would be "happy to share" the evidence he gave to the Butler inquiry as it had been weighing on his conscience.
He has since founded Independent Diplomat, a non-profit diplomatic advisory service.