quote from burgher
The fact is YOU have made the decision to invest in Thailand, but you want SOMEONE ELSE to take on your risk.
Dream on mate, take responsibility for your own actions.
Well I cant thank you enough, you have just shown why nobody should trust or buy a property from a developer with this attitude.
It seems sad that developers including yourself shy away from your responsibility to the general public, sell at any cost and tough luck on the stupid buyer.
As to your first sentence,
Ok, you're on.
Can we also add a condition that says the developer gets 30% of the profit your house makes down the line ? Fairs, fair.
This seems a fair option and of course one which i hope to see made public, would other developers like to follow your lead.
The only problem I forsee is its just talk when one looks of course at your second comment again.
I have tried to find ways that could reinstall public confidence in the housing sector but of course whenever anyone says something helpfull the reply from certain individuals is somewhat inflamitory.
Hey fella, I am not your mate. Mate.
ST
New company ownership rules might affect you
As back in Canada, when you buy/sell a house you let the solicitor's take care of the legal side of things.
Why do you think it should be different here ?
What is it exactly that you think the developers know about the future (and are not telling you) that your solicitor doesn't know ? Can you answer me that ?
You clearly are concerned about the risk, so why on earth did you put your/your families money into something you were uncertain about ?
And you are bringing this up just after the Government announced that property investors are exempt from the new tough FBA rules.
You should be feeling positive.
Take responsibility for your own actions, stop trying to blame others.
Burger
Why do you think it should be different here ?
What is it exactly that you think the developers know about the future (and are not telling you) that your solicitor doesn't know ? Can you answer me that ?
You clearly are concerned about the risk, so why on earth did you put your/your families money into something you were uncertain about ?
And you are bringing this up just after the Government announced that property investors are exempt from the new tough FBA rules.
You should be feeling positive.
Take responsibility for your own actions, stop trying to blame others.
Burger
Canada 1, it would be a wonderful world if every bank (i.e. for stock-investments), car dealers, insurance brokers, developers or real estate agents etc., take over the investment-risk of their customers. 
You should keep in mind:
1. We are here in TH and not in the EU, Canada or USA!
Everybody who has the idea to invest in a so-called 3rd world country should say "goodbye" to the legal security, he knows from his home country.
2. Also in Europe we don't believe every advertisement, which show us products in the nicest light and try to catch our money with a lot of sweet words, right?
Why you start to do so in TH?
3. People that offer you their products aren't your friends!
They want to earn money from you, nothing else! ...and, which more money is to earn, the less value is laid on moral responsibility.
You said, you wanted to own a house in TH, and therefore you bought one, isn't it?
If you would have informed yourself correctly in advance, it should be clear to you, that you can't acquire house property in TH (as you know it from your home country, or as a Thai-citizen can do) under the present circumstances.
Many people told in this and other topics already, that you never should invest more money than you can afford to lose. That's a very good advice, because it circumscribes nicely, that the risk to lose money is unusually high.
If TH really would like that foreigners own land & houses, they can change the actual laws within a blink! But they hadn't done it yet, although they had enough possibilities in the last months.
So take your risk by your own if you think it's worth, or keep your hands off and enjoy your money in better more ways....there are a lot!
You should keep in mind:
1. We are here in TH and not in the EU, Canada or USA!
Everybody who has the idea to invest in a so-called 3rd world country should say "goodbye" to the legal security, he knows from his home country.
2. Also in Europe we don't believe every advertisement, which show us products in the nicest light and try to catch our money with a lot of sweet words, right?
Why you start to do so in TH?
3. People that offer you their products aren't your friends!
They want to earn money from you, nothing else! ...and, which more money is to earn, the less value is laid on moral responsibility.
You said, you wanted to own a house in TH, and therefore you bought one, isn't it?
If you would have informed yourself correctly in advance, it should be clear to you, that you can't acquire house property in TH (as you know it from your home country, or as a Thai-citizen can do) under the present circumstances.
Many people told in this and other topics already, that you never should invest more money than you can afford to lose. That's a very good advice, because it circumscribes nicely, that the risk to lose money is unusually high.
If TH really would like that foreigners own land & houses, they can change the actual laws within a blink! But they hadn't done it yet, although they had enough possibilities in the last months.
So take your risk by your own if you think it's worth, or keep your hands off and enjoy your money in better more ways....there are a lot!
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Wanderlust
- Legend
- Posts: 2862
- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 12:27 pm
- Location: Hua Hin
Now we have shot canada1's suggestion down in flames, we should really discuss why some buyers feel so bitter about their house purchases in Thailand, and I would suggest that part of the problem has been (and possibly still is) the dodgy practices indulged in by some developers, construction companies, lawyers and estate agents. I am thinking along the lines of not informing foriegn buyers that they cannot own the land, and that the 'shell' company route is at best exploiting a loophole and at worst breaking both the spirit and intent of the law. Also the practice of having their own 'tame' lawyer who will reassure those buyers and tell them that he will handle everything and they have nothing to worry about, or not refunding monies paid when the buyer changes their mind even when they were told they could, or any number of complaints I have read or heard over the last few years.
There are reputable people out there in the housing business but they are not always easy to find, and this adds to the risk assessment that needs to be made when considering a house purchase here. This country is not regulated (or over regulated) in the same way that Western countries are, and getting some recompense when things go wrong is very difficult, so again it has to be said - BUYER BEWARE!
There are reputable people out there in the housing business but they are not always easy to find, and this adds to the risk assessment that needs to be made when considering a house purchase here. This country is not regulated (or over regulated) in the same way that Western countries are, and getting some recompense when things go wrong is very difficult, so again it has to be said - BUYER BEWARE!
In my opinion people come out here, very exited, very naive, and do not even bother consulting a solicitor even when you advise them too.
Any switched on person would get a good neutral solicitor, read websites (forums and Thai Governments ones) and understand what they are doing.
You go to a solicitor for legal advice, not a person doing the selling as you can not be sure they are impartial.
But most of them can't be arsed and/or are too tight to spend money on a solicitor. They are not taking responsibility for their family as you or I may WL.
Those that I know who have bought do not seem too concerned, they are happy about the price increase their investment has made so far though.
Burger
Any switched on person would get a good neutral solicitor, read websites (forums and Thai Governments ones) and understand what they are doing.
You go to a solicitor for legal advice, not a person doing the selling as you can not be sure they are impartial.
But most of them can't be arsed and/or are too tight to spend money on a solicitor. They are not taking responsibility for their family as you or I may WL.
Those that I know who have bought do not seem too concerned, they are happy about the price increase their investment has made so far though.
Burger
I agree that doing research is the best thing and through other's personal experiences reported here and elsewhere, I have a list of agents and developers to avoid and another with bad personal experience offering me to run past the name of another if/when I go ahead.
Funnily enough, Burger isn't on that list!
The other strage thing, is that some who have had real hassle during the build process, through not being present or whatever, have despite all the difficulties, stress, bad feeling and loss of trust incurred, actually ended up with really nice places that they are satisfied with.
Does make you wonder why they have to go through so many hoops to get there?
Funnily enough, Burger isn't on that list!
The other strage thing, is that some who have had real hassle during the build process, through not being present or whatever, have despite all the difficulties, stress, bad feeling and loss of trust incurred, actually ended up with really nice places that they are satisfied with.
Does make you wonder why they have to go through so many hoops to get there?
Talk is cheap
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appleman_thai
- Amateur
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:26 pm
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
Is this true? I understood that they just exempted some companies in annex 3 like hotels and retail outlets.Burger wrote:
And you are bringing this up just after the Government announced that property investors are exempt from the new tough FBA rules.
You should be feeling positive.
Does it specifically refer to property investors?
www.geroreilly.com
Former Expat in Cha-am - now back in Ireland!
Former Expat in Cha-am - now back in Ireland!
They removed retail and hotel businesses from List 3 of the FBA altogether.
What they did for the rest of List 3 businesses is exempt them from being classed as 'foreign' should the foreigner hold more than 50% of the voting rights.
Therefore they have left it as it was for our companies that our set up to operate in List 3.
Therefore we do not need to restructure the voting or shares rights (as was originally proposed) , we can carry on as before.
Ofcourse that doesn't mean anything else may change some time down the line.
But there's been about 4 law/regulation changes in the last year (last and this Government) and all exempted any restrictions on foreigners buying property.
That tells me they welcome the investment, others will disagree.
Also for Lists 1 & 2 they have been given 3 years to restructure, that's plenty of time to take out a 30 year lease.
Burger
What they did for the rest of List 3 businesses is exempt them from being classed as 'foreign' should the foreigner hold more than 50% of the voting rights.
Therefore they have left it as it was for our companies that our set up to operate in List 3.
Therefore we do not need to restructure the voting or shares rights (as was originally proposed) , we can carry on as before.
Ofcourse that doesn't mean anything else may change some time down the line.
But there's been about 4 law/regulation changes in the last year (last and this Government) and all exempted any restrictions on foreigners buying property.
That tells me they welcome the investment, others will disagree.
Also for Lists 1 & 2 they have been given 3 years to restructure, that's plenty of time to take out a 30 year lease.
Burger
Very true WL. A really good post as usual! You would think by now there would be some kind of official consultancy body that all buyers in Thailand could confidently consult, (perhaps for a small fee - or would that be another opportunity for corrupt officials to make a bob or 2!)Wanderlust wrote:Now we have shot canada1's suggestion down in flames, we should really discuss why some buyers feel so bitter about their house purchases in Thailand, and I would suggest that part of the problem has been (and possibly still is) the dodgy practices indulged in by some developers, construction companies, lawyers and estate agents. I am thinking along the lines of not informing foriegn buyers that they cannot own the land, and that the 'shell' company route is at best exploiting a loophole and at worst breaking both the spirit and intent of the law. Also the practice of having their own 'tame' lawyer who will reassure those buyers and tell them that he will handle everything and they have nothing to worry about, or not refunding monies paid when the buyer changes their mind even when they were told they could, or any number of complaints I have read or heard over the last few years.
There are reputable people out there in the housing business but they are not always easy to find, and this adds to the risk assessment that needs to be made when considering a house purchase here. This country is not regulated (or over regulated) in the same way that Western countries are, and getting some recompense when things go wrong is very difficult, so again it has to be said - BUYER BEWARE!
Roughly speaking, the advice I currently give is:
1. Do not form a new company to buy land. Amongst other things, shareholders are now being scrutinised.
2. You could take ownership of a company that already exists for the purpose of buying land, but before you do, consult a reputable lawyer of your own choice. (I would also point out the risks in doing this)
3. If you want to buy property and are worried about using loopholes - buy a condo!
4. If you really must buy a house, consider a lease, but only take on a lease from a big reputable company or a very trustworthy developer (consult the people who have already bought from the developer). Go for a renewable lease every 5 years so that the lease never drops below 25 years.
5. Assuming you might have a Thai girlfriend, consider putting the land of the house in your Thai wife or girlfriends name and get them to lease it back to you. (She might even be able to obtain a mortgage).
6. As per other posters advice, do not spend what you can not afford to lose, do your homework, sleep on a decision before making it, but at the same time try to ignore all the merchants of doom.
7. Consult an independent lawyer'
Theres obviously a lot more advice one can give, but ultimately, buying property, particularly abroad, not just in Thailand, is a risk which the buyer must be aware of. The buyer must take responsibility for the decision they make, and developers or estate agents need to be aware lies come back to haunt them.
In general, if there is 99 good stories and 1 bad story, you'll hear all about the bad but the other 99 are not news worthy. That's what puts a skewed picture on things. Shit happens but in most cases people are delighted.
Without doubt owning property in this beautiful country is a rewarding experience. Developers have a difficult job right now because there is so much competition. My money is on the good developers in good locations and I think unfortunately some projects will struggle - they already are.
My prediction for the rest of this year - condos will be hot, good developments will still do well, 2nd hand houses will be difficult to sell, some developments will go under. Of course, should new legislation come out in favour of land ownership for ferangs, the housing market will boom.
When Canada1 was at the height of his whinging and blaming of others I asked him the following questions:
Burger
He could never answer them, now's your chance Canada1 ..........Are you buying off a developer ?
Who told you and what were you told, that the land and house, or just house, would be 100% yours personally in your own name or that it would be 100% your Limited Company's ?
What did your solicitor say to that (seeing as you say you have a top law firm recommended by the Canadian Embassy) when you double checked these promises with them ?
Burger
Please accept my apoliges Burgher for my late reply, business you see.
I really am pleased to see that you think the goverment has taken home buyers out of the mill.
What they did for the rest of List 3 businesses is exempt them from being classed as 'foreign' should the foreigner hold more than 50% of the voting rights.
Are you really sure.
First, the new draft will focus on the voting rights of foreign shareholders. If a company is 49 per cent foreign owned but foreigners hold more than 50 per cent of its voting rights the company will be defined as a foreign one.
Hey Burgher please dont lose any sleep or think i would make any stupid investment in Thailand.
Remember a con man can never con an honest man, a con man can only con a man who wants something for nothing.
Therefore i will continue to enjoy my life here in thailand in the knowledge i would never ever trust a developer.
Cheers,
ST
I really am pleased to see that you think the goverment has taken home buyers out of the mill.
What they did for the rest of List 3 businesses is exempt them from being classed as 'foreign' should the foreigner hold more than 50% of the voting rights.
Are you really sure.
First, the new draft will focus on the voting rights of foreign shareholders. If a company is 49 per cent foreign owned but foreigners hold more than 50 per cent of its voting rights the company will be defined as a foreign one.
Hey Burgher please dont lose any sleep or think i would make any stupid investment in Thailand.
Remember a con man can never con an honest man, a con man can only con a man who wants something for nothing.
Therefore i will continue to enjoy my life here in thailand in the knowledge i would never ever trust a developer.
Cheers,
ST
canada1 wrote:
At the meeting Tuesday, the Cabinet approved the proposed amendments to the Foreign Business Act: foreign voting rights in companies in Annex 3 can exceed 50 per cent.
Under the previous draft, any firm in which foreigners held 50 per cent or more of the shares, or 50 per cent or more of shareholders' voting rights, would be considered a foreign company, excluded from business activities reserved for Thais.
I see you STILL refuse to answer the questions about what your Canadian Embassy recommended solicitor told you before you bought, regarding the promise that you would own the land 100% in your own name, via a Limited Company.
Did the term 49% not ring any bells with you ? My guess is you never bothered seeing a solicitor.
Burger
So you've made a wise investment in Thailand then. Well done, so what's all the fuss about ?Hey Burgher please dont lose any sleep or think i would make any stupid investment in Thailand.
I think your info is out of date as the following announcement was made earlier this week and posted on here, maybe you missed it:First, the new draft will focus on the voting rights of foreign shareholders. If a company is 49 per cent foreign owned but foreigners hold more than 50 per cent of its voting rights the company will be defined as a foreign one.
At the meeting Tuesday, the Cabinet approved the proposed amendments to the Foreign Business Act: foreign voting rights in companies in Annex 3 can exceed 50 per cent.
Under the previous draft, any firm in which foreigners held 50 per cent or more of the shares, or 50 per cent or more of shareholders' voting rights, would be considered a foreign company, excluded from business activities reserved for Thais.
I see you STILL refuse to answer the questions about what your Canadian Embassy recommended solicitor told you before you bought, regarding the promise that you would own the land 100% in your own name, via a Limited Company.
Did the term 49% not ring any bells with you ? My guess is you never bothered seeing a solicitor.
Burger
hi Burgher
Sorry you dont understand, I invest nothing in thailand.
But it was really wonderfull to see just how developers would treat people who had bought land under the company scheme which of course you have defended from day one.
Sorry to say if you check my update post you will of course see that what you print about foreign companies is in fact incorrect, could you please show where this quote comes from.
Also you seem to have missed the land code act, the only person here to post a decent comment was Jockey.
Posted: Sat Apr 14,
1. Do not form a new company to buy land. Amongst other things, shareholders are now being scrutinised.
Bergher, are you really a developer or just a bricklayer?. I assume the latter.
Enough lies have been told on this forum regarding property ownership and sooner or later the truth will come out, however much that hurts.
For too long certain people have lived the great lie regarding property and they cling on in the belief that if they tell the lie long enough it just may be the truth.
Dream on.
ST
Sorry you dont understand, I invest nothing in thailand.
But it was really wonderfull to see just how developers would treat people who had bought land under the company scheme which of course you have defended from day one.
Sorry to say if you check my update post you will of course see that what you print about foreign companies is in fact incorrect, could you please show where this quote comes from.
Also you seem to have missed the land code act, the only person here to post a decent comment was Jockey.
Posted: Sat Apr 14,
1. Do not form a new company to buy land. Amongst other things, shareholders are now being scrutinised.
Bergher, are you really a developer or just a bricklayer?. I assume the latter.
Enough lies have been told on this forum regarding property ownership and sooner or later the truth will come out, however much that hurts.
For too long certain people have lived the great lie regarding property and they cling on in the belief that if they tell the lie long enough it just may be the truth.
Dream on.
ST