Electric Vehicles (EV) Thread

[STEVE G]

Electric bright sparks:
A range of available cars at the link

I'm surprised they didn't highlight the most affordable EV
Actually about the same price as 2 of the most popular top end models of ICEs 'made in Thailand' entry level sedans.

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The MG EP is a pretty good deal at that price, it works out at about 21,000 Euro and the same car in Europe goes for over 30,000!

[Nereus]

An article about the second life for EV Batteries,
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/tech ... ed-storage

While the idea is commenable, they overlook just how a used EV battery can be stored and used in a home environment. While the individual modules can be moved around, the number needed to give anywhere near the storage capacities being quoted would require a dedicated secure and fire proof area.

https://www.motorreviewer.com/ev_powertrain.php?id=1

[Nereus]

Another thing being conveniently overlooked is: just where is all this power coming from that is going to be pumped into all these new EV cars?
In many places, even developed countries, the existing power grid infrastructure does not have the capacity for big load increases, particulary loads that are likely to be placed on it in the evening, when all these owners get home from work and plug in their new car.

[STEVE G]

Another thing being conveniently overlooked is: just where is all this power coming from that is going to be pumped into all these new EV cars?

I've seen a letter to a newspaper from over a hundred years ago that said that the car would never replace the horse because the only place you could buy petrol was in a pharmacy.

[Dannie Boy]

I am only familiar with how the grid system works in the UK, however it’s likely that many countries follow the same principles. To meet demand the grid calls for power from the lowest priced suppliers at any given time - as demand increases, increasingly more expensive power plants come on stream.

If the majority of EV car owners plug in during the evening, it may well result in more expensive power plants being called to meet demand, but it’s unlikely that demand will exceed the supply available, however it might result in the price for electricity increasing.

There’s no doubt though, that long term, more installed capacity will be required.

[Nereus]

Another thing being conveniently overlooked is: just where is all this power coming from that is going to be pumped into all these new EV cars?

I've seen a letter to a newspaper from over a hundred years ago that said that the car would never replace the horse because the only place you could buy petrol was in a pharmacy.

So does that mean that we will be able to buy electicity in a bottle from a pharmacy?

I thought that you have had technical training Steve. That is the sort of comment to be expected from the likes of the recently banned poster! Grid stability is already a problem in some countries. And the more we move towards renewable sources, the more of a problem it will become.

[Nereus]

The following is something that I have had sitting on my laptop for the last few weeks:

There is a lot of controversy and misunderstanding about just how a power grid operates, and the effect on it with the charging of EV batteries. To some extent this is also tied to the increasing use of renewable power sources, such as solar and wind generation.

A traditional power generating station, be it thermal (steam) diesel, gas (LNG) or hydro, usually consists of a large rotating machine, that by default, has a lot of inertia and tends to be relatively stable in operation.

Each machine tied to a power grid will have a control system that can regulate its output up to its maximum designed load. ALL of the generators connected to a grid system have to have their output "in phase", that is; all have to generate the rise and fall of the AC voltage together, and ALL have the grid frequency (50 or 60 hz) locked together.

The normal practice with big grid systems is to nominate one station as a "master" station that sets the grid frequency for the other stations to follow. The deviation of the frequency is closely controlled to around 0.04%, and the master station will make slight adjustments over 24 hours so that the grid frequency average is exactly followed over that time period.

Historically, the demand on power grids has been somewhat predictable in regard to peak demand throughout the day. A good example is the UK grid:

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/news/eu ... ick-effect

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news ... 93624.html

Apart from those stations running gas turbine driven generators (which can be bought online very quickly), thermal stations very often have to keep generator's running at low, or very little load, to enable them to quickly react to big load variations. This very inefficient and costly, and operators are loath to do it.

As we enter the new era of renewable sources of electric power the traditional methods of predicting grid loads goes out the window! We can only predict roughly when the wind will blow, or the sun shines brightly, and not at all when the sun goes down!

I am not saying that in the longer term it is not possible, just that not enough planning is being done right now.

[Dannie Boy]

The UK installed total maximum capacity from all sources in 2020 was over 75 GW and current daily consumption is just under 31 GW, so there’s a fairy large reserve to deal with fluctuating supplies from renewables. As the % of renewables increases, this will make balancing demand and supply more difficult, so there will always be the need for other sources of supply - the recent announcement to increase nuclear capacity will be very important, but probably a minimum of 10 years before any new plants go into service.

[STEVE G]

So does that mean that we will be able to buy electicity in a bottle from a pharmacy?

No, just that surely it's not beyond the means of electrical supply companies to adapt to demand, electricity is a commodity and in a commercial world increased demand should be seen as an opportunity, not a problem.

[hhinner]

An article about the second life for EV Batteries,
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/tech ... ed-storage

While the idea is commenable, they overlook just how a used EV battery can be stored and used in a home environment. While the individual modules can be moved around, the number needed to give anywhere near the storage capacities being quoted would require a dedicated secure and fire proof area.

https://www.motorreviewer.com/ev_powertrain.php?id=1

Perhaps solid state batteries will ease the recycling and storage problems. Just not yet.

https://www.autoweek.com/news/technolog ... batteries/

There are much more technical articles, but as an intro this will do.

[Nereus]

The UK installed total maximum capacity from all sources in 2020 was over 75 GW and current daily consumption is just under 31 GW, so there’s a fairy large reserve to deal with fluctuating supplies from renewables. As the % of renewables increases, this will make balancing demand and supply more difficult, so there will always be the need for other sources of supply - the recent announcement to increase nuclear capacity will be very important, but probably a minimum of 10 years before any new plants go into service.

The installed capacity is only part of the big picture. Bear in mind that those figures include solar, wind and other small producers that have no guarantee of being online when needed.

The existing problem is not what power MAY be available, but the infrastructure required to distribute power to where it is needed. This includes, but is not limited to, the size of the transformers at street level, the size of the current carrying conductors connected to them, the switchgear required to control and protect all of that infrastructure.

There is more, but it is bedtime!

[Dannie Boy]

The UK installed total maximum capacity from all sources in 2020 was over 75 GW and current daily consumption is just under 31 GW, so there’s a fairy large reserve to deal with fluctuating supplies from renewables. As the % of renewables increases, this will make balancing demand and supply more difficult, so there will always be the need for other sources of supply - the recent announcement to increase nuclear capacity will be very important, but probably a minimum of 10 years before any new plants go into service.

The installed capacity is only part of the big picture. Bear in mind that those figures include solar, wind and other small producers that have no guarantee of being online when needed.

The existing problem is not what power MAY be available, but the infrastructure required to distribute power to where it is needed. This includes, but is not limited to, the size of the transformers at street level, the size of the current carrying conductors connected to them, the switchgear required to control and protect all of that infrastructure.

There is more, but it is bedtime!

Indeed it’s complex, but using the UK as my example, they have a very robust infrastructure that has stood the test of time for many years, so I’m sure it can cope with a switch to more EV vehicles being charged from home and at designated charging stations that will have their infrastructure upgraded when constructed.

Anyway, as important as the supply side of it is, let’s get back to the subject of electric cars!!

[Dannie Boy]

NASA joins the race to help develop batteries that will help power the next generation of EV vehicles - let’s hope their scientists can help make the necessary breakthrough’s!!
https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/nasa ... 55613.html

[Nereus]

Anyway, as important as the supply side of it is, let’s get back to the subject of electric cars!!

It is pretty simple: if the grid cannot support the extra load charging EV batteries, then there is not much point in having electric cars!

The following is one example of how it may be engineered:

As more Australians buy electric vehicles, energy companies are finding ways to help the grid cope

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-18/ ... /100916666

[Dannie Boy]

I believe that this type of initiative will be taken up more and more around the world - although Thailand will probably be one of the last to adopt such things. The thing is that people are already working on the solutions and it’s probably not unreasonable to expect this to increase over time, as EV’s gain popularity.