Problems living in Thailand

[edwinadanish]

Thank you Jaime and the many others who have seen my posts in the light they have been meant, not to mention the PMs supporting me.

In answer to those asking me to continue posting, I am afraid I have to trust my judgement that this is an unfriendly and defensive environment I do not want to be part of, so this will definitely be my last post.

If there was a counter argument of any merit I would stay around to answer it, but all I get is advice to go to the temple, go home or chill out. I am very happy thank you, I just think the truth about this country we live in needs airing and that's why there is a forum here.

Apparently this is all too much for some members here for whatever reason but thank God/Buddha that there are enough normal peole wo can follow an argument, see the points being de and unsetrstand the concept of principles and hypotheticals. Thank you all for your support.

It doesn't matter what you believe or how you see things, you should have a right to express your opinion and be shown respect for this.

I will leave with the thoughts of the first Brit I ever met in Thailand, a certain Brit called Simon XXXXXXXX. I didn't believe him then but I see it now. In no particular order....

Everything that should be easy isn't and vice versa - others agree with this here I see..

You can tell the sort of place you are in by the way they will park a motorbike on both your bumpers after you have parked and not even consider that this might be a touch irritating.

Whenever you come into contact with people, be prepared to be obstructed - either on foot, by bike or by car - this is because they simply want to get from A to B and have no conception whatsoever that someopne else might have the same idea.

You can generally tell how long a foreigner has been here by how much they have started to think like a local and not even question the process - I have really seen that here on HHAD.

When buying anything always remember that if it was made here it won't work and if it wasn't it'll be a copy - not strictly true but worth remembering.

Locals cannot do more than one thing at once so that is shy they cannot drive, ride a bike, they will always have to stop doing whatever they are doing to talk to someone, the waiter will stand there with your dish in hand and get confused if something else comes up.... etc..

Be careful with buying property as you don't know who you can trust and the only well built property is the property with no water or electrics as that is normally technically beyond the locals.

Money can buy you anything here from apolice escort to any TV model. All has it's price in Toyland (his term for LoS)...

Thailand is the biggest contradiction in the world - prostitution is illegal yet look at it's reputation all over the woprld for good reason. Alcohol is not allowed on an election eve or day yet you can sit in the back of a pick-up truck pissed no problem. You can speed as fast as you like and never get stopped by a police car on the road but a unifromed guy will jump out at you from every blind corner risking life and limb for 100 THB.

This was all meant light-heartedly over a few hours but I remember it because I emailed a friend the next day hence I can remember it all. I cannot beleive I'm the one saying it all now - wow, I have been here that long!

Yes, but the difference is that I can still see the good and bad points. I haven't been suppressed by the fear of speaking out, brainwashed by the 'mai pen rai' brigade, rendered braindead by the bottle or bitter by an impoverished existence even the locals don't envy.

That last point is key. You only have power here as Simon said if you have money and I think a lot of the members here know this only too well... hence the defensiveness. Of course only some of the more bitter and loed-minded members who know who theya re always poking fun at every new post not from one of their 'buddies'.

Anyway, I bear no grudges and feel no bitterness and I hope this thread can now be seen in the positive light it was always intended as a philosophical argument!

[lindosfan1]

You will love living here if you do not expect too much from life, you like the simple pleasures, you are happy sitting around not doing too much and you can grin and laugh at any trivial thing. You might also appreciate cheap booze, cigarettes and sex if you are so inclined but of course not gambling.

You will hate living here if you like culture, deep thinking, intelligent coversation, good TV, morals, honesty, being treated as an equal, feeling safe at home or on the roads. You might also struggle with the corruption, cheapness of life and the total hypocrisy in nearly every aspect of life.

That is what you said on your first post on this thread. That is not "a philosophical arguement".
What you have be is super critical of any one who differs from your view point.
Your first post in another thread asked for advise, when this was given you were objectionablle to some members who gave good advice, you were again objectionable to those same people in this thread,
You once asked for advice listen and learn or as my mother daid keep your mouth shut and yours ears open.
Rant over

[dtaai-maai]

You will hate living here if you like culture, deep thinking, intelligent coversation, good TV, morals, honesty, being treated as an equal, feeling safe at home or on the roads. You might also struggle with the corruption, cheapness of life and the total hypocrisy in nearly every aspect of life.

I don't understand why the above quote has been so controversial or why it is considered as trolling as it seems like a perfectly reasonable and honest assessment.

It is exactly how I read the situation in Thailand

And you live where, Jaime? Utopia?

Regardless of whether Edwin(a) is a troll, a Farang or whatever, surely deep thinking (and how pretentious a phrase is that?), culture and intelligent conversation are available anywhere these days? Even the UK, probably, if you look hard enough.

Comments like this actually make me feel quite protective of Thailand.

Not sure I like that...

[Jaime]

Again, and I know I'm probably swimming against the tide here, but I don't see anything critical in the comment by Edwina that you have quoted above Lindos. As I see it, it is simply an observation and one that, for the most part, I agree with. I just don't see what is so contoversial about it.

[Jaime]

You will hate living here if you like culture, deep thinking, intelligent coversation, good TV, morals, honesty, being treated as an equal, feeling safe at home or on the roads. You might also struggle with the corruption, cheapness of life and the total hypocrisy in nearly every aspect of life.

I don't understand why the above quote has been so controversial or why it is considered as trolling as it seems like a perfectly reasonable and honest assessment.

It is exactly how I read the situation in Thailand

And you live where, Jaime? Utopia?

So sorry to have rocked your boat. I don't understand why so defensive. get a grip.

[dtaai-maai]

Ah, thanks for the detailed response... I love a nice logical argument!

[Jaime]

Hmmm - like the one you put forward to me? I obviously have much to learn from you. How much will you charge to complete my education?

[dtaai-maai]

Jaime, well, I suppose a decent start might be an answer or two to the questions I asked. Surely your description of life in Thailand bears a strong resemblance to life in the UK and many other countries? God only knows, life ain't perfect here, but each to their own. I'm certainly not dictating to anyone how or where they should live their life, there's enough of that all over the place, including on this forum.

Look, I don't particularly want to get into a forum scrap with you, Jaime, you write an awful lot of very good sense.

Have you seen Edwin(a)'s last post yet?

[Jaime]

Dtaai-Maai, in answer to your questions:

1. I live in a country with a free press, where for the most part people from any background can make a success of themselves, where there is free education and healthcare, which generally is welcoming to foreigners who come here (like my Thai wife) legally and which allows them to work, pay taxes and contribute to society, including universal suffrage and citizenship rights and where it is not acceptable for politicians to openly pay voters for their votes. It is a country in which, for the most part, criminal justice is accessible, is seen to be done and does not rely on the size of your wallet or your social status. Where road safety is a major concern and is respected by the majority of the population, meaning that we do not have hundreds of deaths as a result of traffic accidents each New Year and where the police do not routinely take bribes at every opportunity or engage in other business activities, legal or otherwise. Where moral and professional ethics are upheld by codes of conduct which must be maintained for the greater good of society at the risk of sanction by your peers. Where consideration for others and their viewpoints is held in high esteem. Where we are not at risk of military dictatorship.

However, it goes without saying that like Thailand it is not perfect and I have no idea whether the description above constitutes a Utopian state - you decide.

2. Yes, I can see why the phrase 'deep thinking' might be considered pretentious. However, it is clear that Edwina is not writing in her native tongue so I give more than a little allowance for that and try not to be pompous about it.

3. I do not agree that 'deep thinking', culture and intelligent conversation are available anywhere these days. At least not to the same degree, of the same kind, or as easily found as we enjoy in the west. The sort of discussions on arts, politics, philosophy, contemporary culture and the rest that we take for granted in the west and which are aired frequently on this board rarely happen between Thai and farang (this is what I believe Edwina is alluding to), because the strata of society that the majority of farang (myself included) have contact with are relatively uneducated. This element of Thai society makes up the majority of the Thai population and is held in the thrall of a tiny minority of Thai society that monopolises the country's wealth and prevents Thailand advancing as a modern state leading the way in SE Asia. In addition, most farangs cannot speak Thai to anything like the standard required to have an in depth conversation about art, culture or whatever. Language is the key to accessing any culture - without it one is merely an observer without true understanding.

4. If you mean the post above, then yes I have read it and I agree with most of it.

Does this help clarify things?

[Nereus]

Dtaai-Maai, in answer to your questions:

1. I live in a country with a free press, where for the most part people from any background can make a success of themselves, where there is free education and healthcare, which generally is welcoming to foreigners who come here (like my Thai wife) legally and which allows them to work, pay taxes and contribute to society, including universal suffrage and citizenship rights and where it is not acceptable for politicians to openly pay voters for their votes. It is a country in which, for the most part, criminal justice is accessible, is seen to be done and does not rely on the size of your wallet or your social status. Where road safety is a major concern and is respected by the majority of the population, meaning that we do not have hundreds of deaths as a result of traffic accidents each New Year and where the police do not routinely take bribes at every opportunity or engage in other business activities, legal or otherwise. Where moral and professional ethics are upheld by codes of conduct which must be maintained for the greater good of society at the risk of sanction by your peers. Where consideration for others and their viewpoints is held in high esteem. Where we are not at risk of military dictatorship.

Didn`t realise that you live in Australia Jaime!
Very well written, a balanced, truthfull point of view.

[huahinsimon]

Hmmm - I obviously have much to learn from you. How much will you charge to complete my education?

might be worth a few spanish olives con hueso.

[Wanderlust]

Jaime,
The criticisms of edwinadanish are generally not about his/her opinion, but how he/she (a) expresses it and (b) how he'she reacts to anyone who dare question it. Sure, you agree with him/her but you must see that regardless of native tongue (and the English improves remarkably from his/her first post to the more recent ones) the opinion is put forward in an arrogant ('I am right'), snobbish (in the way he/she refers to not only the Thais, but also to this forum and it's members) and conceited (constant references to his/her personal experience and practice of Buddhism etc). This is not the way to conduct yourself when asking for other peoples' opinions and advice, in my humble opinion. He/she got everything they deserved.

[buksida]

Agree with the above, and I actually agreed with ed's first post depicting the problems in society and treatment of foreigners in Hua Hin. As WL put it most people objected to her "if you don't agree with my view point I'll take my toys to a better forum where people will" attitude, along with the labelling of anyone that has decided to live here full time as being culturally and intellectually challenged. Childish form of attention seeking from the outset and far from "enlightened" IMHO.

[ Edit : on the proviso that the aforementioned is genuine which I very much doubt ]

In answer to those asking me to continue posting, I am afraid I have to trust my judgement that this is an unfriendly and defensive environment I do not want to be part of, so this will definitely be my last post.

DejaVu?

[Jaime]

It takes two to tango Wander.

I guess because I am more sympathetic to Edwina's views it seems to me that the aggression/defensiveness is coming more from her opponents.

I also agree with Edwina that hackle-rising-defensiveness is a common feature of the board when the type of observations that Edwina made (and which I have made in the past) appear.

You say potatoes, I say patatas!

'Nuff said.

[lindosfan1]

I have had many cultural and intelligent conversations and discussions in this country. I am lucky they spokw english because I am still learning to speak Thai.
It is possible depends on who you associate with, and I suspect that enwinadanish has not had the opportunity.
One of the most enlightening discussions was with a monk not only about Budddhism but many other subjects including football.
This idea that you cannot do this in Thailand is rubbish, I have taken the time when I have the chance to speak to Thais from all walks of life.
So I would like to advise those who agree with edwinadanish's view on this to consider have you made the effort to talk to different people. I have and it is enlightening. Yes there is corruption, bad driving but who is more corrupt the Thai minister who takes cash or the UK MP who because of his position takes directorships.
Please remember this is Thailand it has bar girls but it is possible to have conversations with them, it can be very interesting do not mock or deride them for doing what they do. However I like to watch the idiots who come over here thinking they are the bees knees. I have had many a good laugh at their antics.
Life here yes can be sex booze and cigarettes all of which I enjoy. But take the trouble to look for conversation you will then learn a lot more.
As an aside I regret my last comment about listen and learn on my last post but edwinadanish wound me up.