Do buyers deserve all they get?

[huahinsimon]

[quote="chelsea"]Quote:

Quote:
Deserve all they get, Chelsea? Really now. spoken like an interested party. No sympathy for the punter, give the nod to the developer. So the game for the developer is write up weak, ambiguous contracts and put the onus on the punter or his lawyer to catch all the loop holes or they deserve all they get. or Where am I going wrong?

HHS, not a developer or interested party, but have worked in a sales position long enough to know that you can explain a contract to people for as long as you want, everything is agreed that the contract is ok and the end user signs on the line with both parties in agreement.

Then at the 1st instance of anything going wrong (normally with things clearly not included in the contract), it is suddenly the vendors fault. When clearly it had all been agreed upon with both parties signing the original contract.

Personally I have no time for people who sign a contract, know exactly what is in that contract and then when something is not going there way, suddenly cry foul on everyone in sight. "



OK, Chelsea, you and I have had our say. Let's ask the community at large. Let's have a poll. (never did a poll before, so fingers crossed)

The question, plain and simple, revolving around badbrat's original complaint: his developers holding him and the other customers hostage to his control of water. and your statement: if they dont read the contract, they deserve all they get.


Well that didn't seem to work. can anyone add this poll for me

thanks

[DawnHRD]

What are you on about? Obviously a disagreement you've had with Chelsea, but where?

Is there a link to the original post? Which words are Chelsea's & which are yours?

[DawnHRD]

What question & options did you want in the poll? I might be able to add it (not sure if I can, never tried to add a poll to someone else's post) if you tell me what you wanted in it.

Edit - Done.

[huahinsimon]

Poll be up. thanks, Dawn

HHS

[Jockey]

I think this poll is unfair on Chelsea who should not have his name dragged into a poll like this without his consent. However, that said, of course the buyer does not "deserve all he/she gets". This is the type of rhetoric we get from unscrupulous developers and agents who come out with garbage statements like this AFTER they have sold property to the unfortunate buyer and taken hefty profits. The trouble with the property business over here is there is no code of conduct that developers and agents need to adhere to. Normally, in their own country, if an agent or developer lied, bullied or deceived customers the way many do here, they would not be allowed to continue with their business and would find themselves in trouble with the law. Over here they have been allowed to behave like gangsters. I don't think they will be allowed to get away with this for much longer though.

I should add some of the nicest people I have met since I have lived over here are both house developers and agents. They are not all bad! Its only a small few who give the property business over here a bad name.

[chelsea]

Jockey
It not only happens with property, it happens with new/used cars, extended warrenties, insurance and anything else that a contract has to be signed when purchasing.

You can spend any amount of time explaining to the buyer exactly what it covers and what it does not. At that stage if the buyer does not understand or is not sure about anything in that contract, then questions should be raised and/or you do not sign the contract.

Once both parties are happy with the contract, that is the time the contract is signed and not before.

If the purchaser at a later date, starts to give the seller a hard time about something that is not included in the contract, then of course the seller has the right to stick to the contract that was signed at the earler date, and genuily aggreed to by both parties. That is what we have contract for.

Personally I cannot see the sense in buying a property where you will never own the land and are not gauranteed access or essential amenities. I certainly would never do it here in Australia let alone an overseas country.
I see renting as the only safe option at present

[Wanderlust]

I think Jockey has it spot on, and I would just like to add that even if you have a contract that covers every tiny detail, which is then reneged on, in Thailand you will probably have a very hard time, and end up out of pocket, pursuing any legal recompense. This is the biggest reason that the crooks can continue to operate the way they do; that and the corruption which allows these people to still be doing business here. We can only hope that one day they stitch up the wrong person, who goes full bore at them both legally and in the media, but until then 'caveat emptor' I'm afraid.

[Big Boy]

I've been reading this and the associated threads over the last few days, and have been quite shocked at some of the tactics that are now being used.

My wife and daughter have always warned me about moving in to development with service charges. I've always thought that they were a bit high, but not unacceptable. I'm now hearing the stories of having to pay the money every year but not actually receiving the promised service. However, the one that has shocked me most is the 'Wild West' tactics of cutting off the water. The agent has the key to the water supply, and unless you
pay his extortionate fees (regardless of what you have contracted for) he is going to cut your supply off.

This has the taste of Mafia tactics and their protection rackets. Basically additional money to retain the Status Quo. No matter how well you scrutinize a contract, you just aren't going to stop a crook who does this without dragging him through the courts. He is obviously taking a calculated risk after delivering a few well placed 'brown envelopes' and a bit of research in to the Thai Legal system.

In the case of Pyramid Developers, I think that is a completely different matter. In this instance, providing the money continues to flow in to the developments it must surely pay the developer to continue building as promised. Continued production of quality properties must surely encourage more people to invest more money with the developer, and everybody is happy. In HHS' instance, I think his timing has been atrocious - no fault of his I hasten to add. He has invested, just as the flow of money has been drying up - result 30% completed property. Again, I think an important lesson learnt (at HHS' expense) to any new investors. Research your developer as closely as you can (not sure if that would reveal his financial situation, and whether he was a Pyramid Developer). If there is any doubt at all - move on. I'm sure there must be some honest developers out there somewhere. Again, these Pyramid Developers seem to have done their homework, and know how to play the Brown Envelope/Thai Legal System game.

My wife is now urging me to buy land, and employ a Thai builder (apparently my daughter knows a few trusted guys) to build for us. Even so, I have found the recent threads useful in deciding what I will do. Whatever I decide to do when I arrive next year, I'll make sure that I get it endorsed by a good lawyer, and ensure everything is documented in both Thai and English.

Having said all of the above, going back to the OP, I seriously sympathise - there has to be an element of trust between both parties when signing up for such an investment - it is unfortunate, but when crooks are involved, that trust means nothing. The question must be, "How do you identify an honest developer as opposed to a dishonest developer?"

[Jockey]

The question must be, "How do you identify an honest developer as opposed to a dishonest developer?"

I get asked that question a lot. I suggest to the customer to ask the developer a few pertinent questions and think carefully if you want to deal with him/her based on the answer. Good questions could be:

1. Can a foreigner own land in Thailand?

2. Can I have details of the company you work for so they can be checked by a background investigation agency?

3. Can you deal with my lawyer?

4. What is the maximum legal leasehold period that can be filed at the land office?

5. Do you mind if I talk to other people you have built for to see if they are satisfied?

Now a lot of us know who the rogue developers are. We also know the likely answers they would give to these questions would be:

1. yes, no problem

2. No need, my word is my bond

3. No - I don't trust lawyers (unless you use mine)

4. 90 years

5. F off!

[JimmyGreaves]

If buyers dont read a contract carefully enough and make sure every point is covered, do they deserve everything a developer can do to them?

Deserve is a bit wishy washy as in some circumstance you may have great sympathy with a buyer whose developer is behaving outside the contract. In other circumstances if the buyer has not read the contract and the developer is within his rights then its whose fault 'the developer' I think not.

So

Legally YES they do as it's LAW and if you don't abide by the law anarchy rules! The law is the law and you can try and wrioggle as much as you want but it's law!

[Big Boy]

Thanks Jockey

Basic questions, but I can see where you are coming from.

JG,

Legally YES they do as it's LAW and if you don't abide by the law anarchy rules! The law is the law and you can try and wrioggle as much as you want but it's law!

I don't think anybody is denying this, but these guys seem to know how to play the game with their well placed Brown Envelopes and knowledge of the Thai Legal System - or are these guys spreading rumours about the system, and us innocent Farang investors are falling for their stories?

[redzonerocker]

contracts & law;
they should go hand in hand in an ideal world.
unfortunately this is not an ideal world.
nobody deserves to get ripped off, fleeced or conned.
in most contractual disputes, there is very little protection for the buyer from the legal system.
if you buy a home from a bad developer & your roof leaks or your walls start to crack, the amount of time & money spent chasing the developer through the courts would more than likely outweigh the cost of getting it done yourself
if you make expensive down payments for a house to be built & the building comes to an abrupt halt with no sign of continuing, the chances are by the time the developer gets his summons to court, he will probably be out of the country.
therefore contracts drawn up by these dodgy developers aren't worth the paper they are written on.
unless, as has been discussed in one of the threads, there is a regulated body set up to challenge the malpractice that obviously exists, the 'dodgy dealers' will continue to thrive & prey on the vulnerable, a sad fact of life

[Jim]

Where are Burger and Tuk Tuk Mike? I miss their little spats....

[Super Joe]

gh