Did you know ?

[miked]

dtaai-maai wrote
miked, I understand your point, but I can't see the comparison

no, i don't see any comparison
miked

[Guess]

I don't know why the Thais dont make a big fuss over their people who were impressed into labor gangs by the Nips and died at a rate of about 10 times that of the Allied POW's.

anybody know?

No I do not have a clue. It is the first I have heard of it. I have never read any account of Thais being forced into labour. They were used as cheap labour but as far as I know they were considered as friendly hosts by the Japanese thought the war. The Burmese were treated in a similar manner even though officially they were the enemy as they were under British Rule. If the Japanese use Thai forced labour it has been kept a very close secret.

The exception is the Sri Thai who were dealt with in the same way any resistance movement was dealt with but I don't think it ran into millions as you suggest.

Where did you read it?

good job the U.K. Australia, New Zealand, U.S., Canada etc didn't make the sensible decision
miked

I don't understand what you mean but I will elaborate. I have seen your recent post and I am even more confused.

The sensible decision was referring to Thailand. The option would have been to fight. This would have benefited the British, Malays and Indians a little by slowing the Japanese down. But what price to pay. The Thais are not ones to give in easily but the decision to surrender within a couple of days after a few skirmishes was the correct thing to do for Thailand and it's people. Thailand were just as surprised at the invasion that the US and the Malays were on the same day. The US and the British backed Malays were equipped for war , the Thais were not.

The U.K. Australia, New Zealand, U.S., Canada etc. didn't make the same decision because they were not placed in the same position.

Australia, New Zealand and Canada were already allies with the UK. The Canadians were already in South East England with bomber and fighters taking on the Luftwaffe. Australia and New Zealand troops were already mobilized for in fighting in whatever arenas they were needed for.

The US were bombed into the war by an undeclared act of aggression by the Japanese. I am sure that everybody else knows this which is why I didn't go into it in the first place. It all has little bearing on the war in Thailand which is what we are discussing here.

BTW. The suggestion that the Japanese were looking for food in Isan makes a lot of sense. They weren't getting any from Japan or Burma. The only decent food they got for two years was when they over ran a British Unit and plundered the stores.

[miked]

The sensible decision was referring to Thailand. The option would have been to fight. This would have benefited the British, Malays and Indians a little by slowing the Japanese down. But what price to pay.

the same price the British, Malays and Indians paid, but then they didn't surrender djd they. had everyone made the sensible decision then thailand today i think still ruled by the japanese.
whatever the price to defend your country is a price worth paying.
miked

[dtaai-maai]

The sensible decision was referring to Thailand. The option would have been to fight. This would have benefited the British, Malays and Indians a little by slowing the Japanese down. But what price to pay.

the same price the British, Malays and Indians paid, but then they didn't surrender djd they. had everyone made the sensible decision then thailand today i think still ruled by the japanese.
whatever the price to defend your country is a price worth paying.
miked

Malaya and Burma were British colonies. They were rapidly overrun by overwhelming Japanese forces. They fought bravely, but most had little choice but to surrender in the end. Which is how they ended up in the Japanese POW camps.

The fact that individual groups of isolated Allied troops had no choice other than to surrender doesn't, obviously, mean that the nations involved surrendered. If half a million Japanese troops had suddenly appeared in London, Dover, Liverpool, etc. different decisions might have been made. They obviously didn't, nor were they ever likely to.

I'm all for a bit of healthy patriotism, but let's keep it healthy.

This has been a very informative thread so far.

Obviously, Thailand wouldn't be ruled by the Japanese today, any more than any of the other territories they overran.


Guess, I saw an interesting BBC World documentary on the Burma-Thailand railway a week or two ago. An Indian engineer was investigating the technical aspects of the construction and came across substantial evidence to suggest that there were what amounted to 'slave camps' of (if I recall correctly) Burmese and Thai people in the border area, the vast majority of whom died (including women and children) - in far greater numbers than the Allied prisoners of war. It also included photographic evidence that Allied POWs were used on sections of the railway that were previously denied by the Japanese.

[miked]

Obviously, Thailand wouldn't be ruled by the Japanese today, any more than any of the other territories they overran.
do you really think that with absolute victory the japanese would have left thailand.??? turned it into a slave labour camp more likely.
they would still be here today.
miked

[dtaai-maai]

Obviously, Thailand wouldn't be ruled by the Japanese today, any more than any of the other territories they overran.
do you really think that with absolute victory the japanese would have left thailand.??? turned it into a slave labour camp more likely.
they would still be here today.
miked

Absolute victory? Sorry, where did that little gem come from? My answer is "no, of course not". Sayonara.

[Guess]

Very interesting. The POWs had no idea where they were so even the few who lived through it could not give much information when released.

The figures of the numbers of allies involved changes dramatically if you include the countless number of Coolies. Most estimates say 100,000 were working and lost but the plantation owners in Malaya claimed they lost in excess of 200,000.

Any remains found now could still be identified racially. Indians could be mistaken for Burmese in small numbers but I cannot believe Thais could be so mistaken. Genetics would hold the answer.

I have heard before that Allied POWs were working the whole length of the line but much of it has now been flooded so all evidence is lost. Another problem that the investigators have is that much of the line on the Burmese side is lost. The rails from Nam Tok onwards on the Thai side were ripped up straight after the war ended. Then the Kwai Noi and the Kwai Yai were dammed. On the Burmese side of the Three Pagodas Pass the Burmese also ripped up the lines and the course soon became overgrown.

Anyway I would like to see the BBC documentary. Do you remember the name and when it was first shown so I can download it. I would also like to see the source from HHS that states Thais died in vast numbers on the railway construction.

BTW, non POWs that were working and died of disease would not have been listed as casualties of war. There were at least 20,000 Koreans on site but the number of casualties only records those who were killed in bombing raids or by the liberating US and British troops in 1945.

Thanks for a good additional piece of information.

[dtaai-maai]

1. Apparently Thailand declared war on the US and the UK in 1942.

2. The BBC documentary was about 3 weeks ago. I came across it by chance.

I'm now curious and am trying to find out more about all of this.

[dtaai-maai]

This is the best I can do for now, I'm afraid:

The Bridge Over the River Kwai
Original Air Date: 25 December 2003
Documentary in which engineer Bashar Altabba looks at the building of the Thai-Burma railway during World War II. Besides the engineering side it also covers the appalling treatment and conditions of the Allied prisoners of war who forced to construct the railway line by the Japanese. Includes interviews with some of the survivors.

[dtaai-maai]

Did you know that Thailand was at war with the French in the early 40s before the Japanese got involved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-Thai_War

[dtaai-maai]

Forgive me, but I find this fascinating...

Wikipedia - Free Thai Movement.

Japanese forces invaded Thailand early on the morning of December 8, 1941 - shortly after the attack on the United States at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Prime Minister, Field Marshal Plaek Phibunsongkhram, ordered a ceasefire at noon, thereafter entering into an armistice that allowed the Japanese to use Thai military installations in their invasion of Malaya and Burma. On December 21, a formal military alliance with Japan was concluded.

The Phibun government declared war on Great Britain and the United States on January 25, 1942. Various members of the government who disagreed with the decision were removed from office. Among them were Direk Chaiyanam, the prominent foreign minister who advocated resistance against the Japanese, and Pridi Phanomyong, who was appointed to the apparently powerless post of regent to the absent King Ananda Mahidol.

Whilst the Thai ambassador in London delivered Thailand's declaration of war to the British government, Mom Rajawongse Seni Pramoj, the Thai ambassador to Washington, refused to do so. Instead, he considered organising a resistance movement in the United States.

Following a late morning interview with Secretary Cordell Hull on December 8, Seni returned to his legation to confer with his staff. He stated that he hoped for an Allied victory in the war. Aware that other Washington-based diplomats of similarly occupied countries had chosen to stay and cooperate with the US Government, and possibly influenced by the presence in Washington and relative safety of his wife and three children, Seni opted to do likewise.

The ambassador and his staff unanimously decided to cast their lot with the Allies. Late the same afternoon, he returned to the State Department to offer their services to the Allied cause. Blaming pro-Japanese elements for the early Thai surrender, he spoke to Hull of unfreezing Thai assets in the United States for further prosecution of the war and suggested that the Thais in the country might “organise and preserve a government of true patriotic, liberty-loving Thais while his government is in the clutches of Japan.”

The State Department decided to pretend that Seni continued to represent Thailand. This enabled him to tap into the frozen Thai assets. When asked to draw up a list of “reliable and influential Thai nationals known to be definitely patriotic and anti-Japanese” by the State Department (at the suggestion of John P. Davies), Seni named Regent Pridi, politicians Khuang Aphaiwong and Wilat Osathanon, and diplomats Phraya Sisena and Direk Chaiyanam “reliables”. Others Seni suggested as potential opponents of the ruling Phibun clique included his brother, Mom Rajawongse Kukrit Pramoj, and his brother-in-law, Phra Phinit.

Seni advanced plans to mobilise Thai volunteers in support of the Allies. Beyond the legation staffers and their families, most of the other Thai residents were students enrolled at a range of college and universities, including such institutions as Harvard, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and Cornell. Many chose to stay in the wake of Thai declaration of war in January, refusing repatriation. Most, like Seni, saw their nation as a victim of Japanese aggression.

Despite the reciprocal British declaration of war, a parallel resistance movement was formed by the Thais in Britain. Beyond the legation staff, some of whom sympathised with the students but were afraid to speak out, the natural leaders of the Thai community in England were three high-ranking members of the royal family, Prince Chula Chakrabongse, a dashing and popular grandson of King Chulalongkorn; Queen Ramphaiphanni, the widow of the late, self-exiled King Prajadhipok; and the Queen’s brother, Prince Suphasawatwongsanit Sawatdiwat, a former Thai army officer who had accompanied the royal couple into exile. Prince Chula declined involvement in Free Thai activities, opting instead for wartime services with the British Home Guard. In contrast, the Queen and her brother made clear their Free Thai sympathies and used their connections to assist like-minded students.

Prince Suphasawat had reacted to the Japanese invasion by dispatching a letter to Prime Minister Churchill volunteering his services to the Allied cause. On January 1, 1942, he was asked to assist the geographical section of the General Staff in developing maps of Thailand, a project which, through an all-out effort, he completed in six weeks. He also produced an insightful 59 page analysis of Thai politics for the British Ministry of Information. The Prince hoped that by proving his value he could gain a military position.

These are the first few paragraphs. There is a lot more information on this. I love the idea that Prince Chula was in the Home Guard...

[johnnyk]

Did you know that Thailand was at war with the French in the early 40s before the Japanese got involved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-Thai_War

Fascinating topic.
That sounds quite reasonable given that the French had colonized historical Thai enemies next door in Laos, Cambo and VN. Even today there are border disputes like the current one over the temple on the Thai-Cambo border.
As well, there are many ethnically Lao and ethnically Khmer who have lived in Isaan for centuries. I would imagine the Thais did not want them to be 5th columns inside Thailand.

[Guess]

Did you know that Thailand was at war with the French in the early 40s before the Japanese got involved?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French-Thai_War

Plenty to look at there. I was aware of the Thai Franco war but not of the details. The explanation of the Victory Monument in Bangkok has taught me something. I was told by a Thai university professor that the monument represented the victory of the Thai people over communism. I always had doubts. If it was built in 1941 it must have been erected for the Franco Thai war of the same year.

I think that there were other border disputes during the reigns of Rama IV and Rama V on both the Lao and Cambodian borders.

I have been looking for BBC sites but no luck so far. There are quite a lot of short videos on You Tube.

I did stumble on this interesting account from a British Soldier on how he got himself captured and sent to work on the railway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stor ... 9694.shtml

dtaai-maai & johnnyk, thanks for the info.

The fact that the Thai government did not differentiate between Allied France and Vichy France would indicate that they had little concern for the broader world conflict that was unfolding elsewhere.

In addition to Thailand's forced declaration of war on the Allies I believe they also made prior declarations of independence, and late in the war declared war with Japan.

[Guess]

As this topic has come to a natural conclusion for most of us here is something of a lighter nature.

Did you know that they drive on the left in Indonesia. It looks like this driver learnt to drive in Bangkok.



And a bit of nightlife in the largest Islamic nation in the world.

[kendo]

As this topic has come to a natural conclusion for most of us here is something of a lighter nature.

Did you know that they drive on the left in Indonesia. It looks like this driver learnt to drive in Bangkok.



And a bit of nightlife in the largest Islamic nation in the world.

Hummmm, i did notice the Bridgestone sign on the bridge, there are plenty of those from Swampy to HH, maybe these mini van drivers think it's one big race after a night of Redbull and playing grand Theft Auto.

Hummmm, That jakarta night club, the only thing bouncing there was the Euro Pop, it could have been a load of gateui's.