Military Helicopter crash

[PeteC]

These crashes have ramifications that go far beyond the events themselves. It brings the capability of the entire Thai armed forces into question, and most certainly their training and equipment maintenance procedures. Yet, they spend billions buying a seldom used aircraft carrier, now submarines, and an observation blimp that doesn't work, not to mention the fake bomb detecting gadgets and mid-air collisions of fighter jets. Thailand's potential enemies must be looking on and laughing their arses off. Really time for them to have a major shakeup and rebuild. Pete

[Nereus]

Prayuth: Engine trouble caused 3rd crash

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... -3rd-crash

The crash of the army's Bell 212 helicopter in Phetchaburi's Kaeng Krachan district on Sunday was apparently caused by an engine trouble, unlike the crashes of a Huey helicopter on July 16 and a Black Hawk on July 19 which were caused by bad weather, army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha said.

Gen Prayuth reaffirmed that the army's aircraft have been used with full caution, but every air operation is usually risky.

He said it was necessary for the army to use helicopters to airlift the dead bodies from crash sites in the Kaeng Krachan National Park because it would take many many days to do so on foot in rugged terrains and bad weather.

The Bell 212 which crashed on Sunday morning was put in commission in 1992 or 19 years ago. As other army's aircrafts, the Bell 212 had been well maintained before use, Gen Prayuth said.

Col Sansern Kaewkamnerd, the army spokesman, said earlier today that the ill-fated Bell 212 was the one that was used to deliver the bodies of Maj-Gen Tawan Ruangsri, the 9th Infantry Division commander, and Sornwichai Kongtannukul, the TV Channel 5 cameraman - who were among the nine people killed in the July 19 Black Hawk crash - from the special army training camp in Kaeng Krachan district to the 9th Infantry Division base at Surasee Camp in Kanchanaburi province on Saturday.

The helicopter flew back to the 11th Infantry Regiment in Bang Khen for a regular maintenance check.

On Sunday morning, the aircraft, with new pilots and flight mechanics, flew back to the Kaeng Krachan special training centre.

About 10km from the centre, the helicopter developed an engine trouble. It went out of control and crashed, Col Sansern said.

[Nereus]

This will fix it:

Bell 212 helicopters grounded

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... s-grounded

The remaining 20 Bell 212 helicopters of the army have been ordered grounded for a major examination of their conditions.

Maj-Gen Pitthaya Krachangwong, commander of the Army Aviation Centre, said use of the remaining 20 Bell 212 helicopters still in commission has been temporary suspended for checks of engines and other parts.

Two Bell 212 helicopters crashed on July 16 and today, one inside the Kaeng Krachan National Park in a poor weather conditition and the other today near the national park area following an engine trouble.

The aviation centre will organise activities and religious rites to boost the morale of its staff, Maj-Gen Pitthaya said.

[Nereus]

This is not speculation, or any other thing, just an observation:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/multimedia/p ... -212-crash

There are several photos that show of the latest crash and all of them show the main rotor blades pretty much intact. To me this indicates that the main rotor must have been nearly stopped when the aircraft landed, which leads to the question of whether the pilot had put the machine into "auto rotation". The surrounding bush does not look all that thick, and the rotors should have cut their way through it if the aircraft was operated correctly in an emergency / forced landing.

[Spitfire]

I suppose that is better than saying some "black magic" exists in the area that feeds on helicopters, which is about what was to be expected next.

That wouldn't surprise me a all if it was suggested on TV here, and they are sending a special squad of monks in to deal with it.

[STEVE G]

These crashes have ramifications that go far beyond the events themselves. It brings the capability of the entire Thai armed forces into question, and most certainly their training and equipment maintenance procedures. Yet, they spend billions buying a seldom used aircraft carrier, now submarines, and an observation blimp that doesn't work, not to mention the fake bomb detecting gadgets and mid-air collisions of fighter jets. Thailand's potential enemies must be looking on and laughing their arses off. Really time for them to have a major shakeup and rebuild. Pete

Yes and considering the large increases in defence budgets since the 2006 coup, you have to question whether the money wouldn't be better spent on maintaining core capabilities rather than buying things like submarines. (Or golf courses!)

[dtaai-maai]

Yes and considering the large increases in defence budgets since the 2006 coup, you have to question whether the money wouldn't be better spent on maintaining core capabilities rather than buying things like submarines. (Or golf courses!)

I disagree, Steve. The entire defence budget should be devoted to golf courses. You never know, it might catch on!

[STEVE G]

I disagree, Steve. The entire defence budget should be devoted to golf courses. You never know, it might catch on!

Perhaps they should build one near that crumbling Khmer temple instead of pounding the locals with artillery shells.

[Nereus]

Fleet grounded, rotor failure suspected cause

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... pper-crash

A third helicopter crashed near the Thai-Burmese border yesterday killing three people on board, forcing the army to ground its Bell 212 helicopter fleet.

The Bell 212 transport helicopter crashed in the morning while on its way to pick up the bodies of the nine victims in the Black Hawk helicopter crash on Tuesday.

The Black Hawk crashed in a Burmese forest opposite the Kaeng Krachan National Park during an operation to retrieve the bodies of five soldiers who had died in an earlier air crash involving a Huey helicopter.

The Bell helicopter caught fire on impact, killing first pilot Maj Theerawat Kaewkamol, second pilot Lt Burana Wanjai, and first mechanic SM 1 Wichian Janpat.

Second mechanic Sgt Pattanaporn Tonchan also on board was seriously injured.

Royal Thai Army Aviation commander Maj Gen Pitaya Krajangwong said after the incident that he had ordered all of the army's approximately 20 Bell helicopters grounded.

A thorough check would be conducted to assess whether they are safe to take off again, he added.

The army has ruled out bad weather as the cause of the accident.

On Saturday, the Bell helicopter took part in transporting the remains of the first two victims of the Black Hawk crash from Phetchaburi to the 9th Infantry Division in Kanchaburi.

The corpses were of 9th Infantry Division commander Maj Gen Tawan Ruangsri and Channel 5 television cameraman Sornwichai Kongtannikul.

After leaving Kanchanaburi, the Bell helicopter returned to Bangkok before heading back to Phetchaburi to pick up more corpses yesterday morning.

But it went down in Ban Nong Ket, about 12km from the office of the Kaeng Krachan National Park or about 50km from the Black Hawk crash site.

Supernatural: Residents saw signs of tragedy

Chanthip Saengsom, 42, a resort worker who witnessed the Bell helicopter crash, said she and three other workers were mowing a lawn when they heard the helicopter approach.

A few seconds after they looked up to see the aircraft, it was plunging to the ground, Mrs Chanthip said.

They rushed to the crash scene but could help only one victim out of the burning wreckage.

They could not help the others in time before the helicopter was engulfed in flames, said the witness.

Army chief Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha insisted that the third helicopter crash had nothing to do with poor weather conditions which are thought to have brought down the first two helicopters.

He said the Bell 212 helicopter that crashed yesterday morning had been well maintained over the past 19 years that it had been in use and the pilots and crew on board it yesterday morning was a new team that replaced the one that flew the Black Hawk crash victims to Kanchanaburi the previous day.

"These [three] incidents happened to be close in time, so it may seem so overwhelming," Gen Prayuth said.

Maj Gen Pitaya said a preliminary inspection of the Bell helicopter's wreckage suggested the crash was caused by some problems with the tail rotor.

Since the helicopters did not have a black box or a cockpit voice recorder, a formal investigation to figure out the cause of the crashes could be done by simply inspecting the debris of the choppers, he said.

Meanwhile, the seven other corpses of the Black Hawk tragedy were airlifted out of the forest and stored temporarily at the Kaeng Krachan special warfare training camp in Phetchaburi yesterday.

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva offered his condolences to the families that lost their loved ones in the latest helicopter accident.

The prime minister echoed the army's assertion that the third incident was not caused by bad weather.

....................................................................................................

If it had a tail rotor failure the whole aircraft would start to rotate around the vertical axis, very quickly and obviously. A difficult, if not impossible, situation to recover from, depending on a few factors, but mainly the altitude and airspeed.

However, I still suspect that the pilot did not immediately attempt to put the helicopter into auto rotation. In this case the main rotor speed will very rapidly slow down, stall and "blow back”, severing the tail rotor boom. We will never know.

[Nereus]

What did I write?

Morning Focus:Helicopter crashes - supernatural or accident? (25/07/11)

http://www.bangkokpost.com/multimedia/m ... -25th-2011

This video contains these topics...

- Helicopter crashes---supernatural or accident?

- Cartoon Daily News

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If you can read sign language just watch the brainless female conducting the show!

[STEVE G]

Perhaps a relevant comment:

"But Jaran Khaonum, a forest ranger, said he did not believe in supernatural forces.

He said the locations of the first two crashes are valleys with intense wind patterns which could have caused the helicopters to abruptly lose altitude."

Superstitions haunt forest
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... unt-forest

[Nereus]

Copter crashes explained

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... -explained

The crashes of Huey and Black Hawk helicopters on July 16 and July 19 were caused by poor weather conditions while the Bell 212 helicopter had problems with its tail rotor before crashing on Sunday, Army Aviation Centre commander Pitaya Krachangwong said in Monday.

Maj-Gen Pitaya admitted the three crashes in just nine days were most tragic in the army's aviation history, affecting the morale of all concerned.

It is necessary for the centre to rebuild confidence, he said.

All of the three crashes involved an operation to retrieve trapped officials and journalists from the Kaeng Krachan National Park which began on July 11.

According to Maj-Gen Pitaya, the Huey crash on July 16 happened when the pilots tried to make a landing but could not do so because of thick clouds. The copter circled around and crashed into a mountain due to poor visibility, killing all five soldiers on board.

The aircraft was among the 30 used Huey helicopters, categorised as excess defence articles (EDA), given for free to the Thai army by the United States.

They underwent a major factory overhaul in 2004 at the cost of US$ 1 million each. Only 20 of them remain operational.

Maj-Gen Pitaya said the July 19 crash of the Black Hawk was also caused by bad weather. It was on a mission to retrieve the bodies of the five victims of the first crash. All nine people on board, including Maj-Gen Tawan Ruangsri, the 9th Infantry Division commander, were killed.

The bad weather caused the pilots to lose the equilibrium, not being able to see the ground. They tried to land but were not successful, he said.

The Black Hawk that went down on July 19 was one of the seven brand new helicopters bought from the United States in 2003.

Thailand has ordered three more Black Hawks of the same type which are due to arrive in mid-2012. They will be equipped with weather radar.

The Bell 212 helicopter which crashed on Sunday was one of those bought in 1992. It had problems with the tail rotor and crashed while the pilots were trying to make an emergency landing.

Maj-Gen Pitaya said on that day he flew another Bell 212 from Lop Buri to the Kaeng Krachan National Park and saw from the air the ill-fated copter engulfed in flames on the ground.

He said he had ordered all of the remaining Bell 212 helicopters to be grounded temporarily according to the aviation rules. Since a committee had found that crash was caused by tail rotor failure, they would soon be put back in operation.

Maj-Gen Pitaya affirmed that the army's aviation school in Lop Buri is the best training facility for helicopter pilots in Thailand which meets international and United States standards.

The school also trains helicopter pilots of the navy, the Agriculture Ministry and other agencies. It has the best flight simulator.

Throughout the past 44 years, it has trained more than 2,000 helicopter pilots. The first pilots are required to have accumulated 1,500-3,000 flight hours, the second pilots 600-1,500 flight hours.

Maj Prapan Jiamsoongnoen, the first pilot of the Black Hawk that crashed on July 19, had 2,900 flight hours.

The army now has 400 heliocopter pilots. It has about 200 helicopters but only about 40 per cent of them are now in use because of problems over budgets and spare parts, Maj-Gen Pitaya said.

.......................................................................................................

Make all the claims they like about the standard of the training, the facts are the crew flew the aircraft into known bad weather conditions, against a basic aviation rule.

For the third crash I still maintain that no attempt was made to put the aircraft into auto rotation. Also no mention made about just what type of "problem" there may have been with the tail rotor, given that the aircraft had reportedly just been serviced prior to leaving Bangkok to the area of the crash. At least they have made some public comments, albeit at the same time trying to cover their arse.

[Nereus]

Army pushes for new chopper fleet
Military says current aircraft are 30 years old

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... pper-fleet

The army is pushing for the next government to buy more than 30 new helicopters to reinforce its dwindling and obsolete fleet following three horrific crashes this month.

The planned acquisition is part of the army's programme to replace its Bell HU-1 "Huey" helicopters which have been in use for more than three decades.

The move came after three army helicopters crashed on the Thai-Burmese border in Phetchaburi in separate incidents.

One of the choppers, a Huey, went down in rugged mountainous terrain at Kaeng Krachan National Park on July 16. Five soldiers, who were on a mission to support a campaign against forest encroachment, were killed in the crash.

The other two choppers - a Black Hawk and a Bell 212 - went down in ensuing missions to airlift bodies of the killed victims from the forest on July 19 and 24, respectively, bringing the combined casualties in the three accidents to 17 dead and one injured.

Army chief Prayuth Chan-ocha said he will propose the helicopter purchase plan to the new government when it takes office. The army has had a programme to replace the old Huey fleet but the Democrat-led government said it did not have the money to fund the purchase plan, Gen Prayuth said.

"We have travelled on these old helicopters since we were young. They have only been repaired when needed. Our country does not have a big [military] budget," he said.

An army source said the military's buying list under the plan included 36 new Bell 212 helicopters.

The purchase plan will be forwarded for government approval in the next fiscal year, starting on Oct 1.

Meanwhile, the 2nd Army's second tactical aviation unit in Nakhon Ratchasima has conducted a thorough check of its two Bell 212 helicopters which were grounded following the helicopter crash on Sunday.

Maj Chanawat Thongprasan, the first pilot of one of the two Bell helicopters, said the check results showed the helicopters were in good working condition and ready for use.

Flying missions will be suspended until the order to ground the aircraft was lifted, he said.

Second Army commander Lt Gen Thawatchai Samutsakhon said he now travels by car instead of flying even though it takes eight hours to reach Yasothon by road.

In Kanchanaburi, the army yesterday airlifted bodies of the nine Black Hawk crash victims to their home provinces for their families to perform religious ceremonies. A royally sponsored bathing ceremony was held for them on Monday.

Sgt Pattanaporn Tonchan, who was injured in the third helicopter crash and the only survivor from the three accidents, was recovering from back injuries, his doctors said.

Natural Resources and Environment Ministry permanent secretary Chote Trachoo said yesterday he had advised about 30 ministry officials who had taken part in the search and recovery operations for the three crashes in the forest to have their blood checked for possible parasitic infections.

Chaiwat Likhit-aksorn, head of the Kaeng Krachan National Park, had tested positive for a parasitic infection, the type of which had not yet been identified, after taking part in the operation, Mr Chote said. He said it was believed that the parasites had penetrated Mr Chaiwat's body through leech bites.

Tuesday, 117 army officers who took part in the search operations for the Huey and Black Hawk helicopter crash victims on the Thai-Burmese border over the past week arrived at Khao Phanoen Thung mountain on foot.
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Maybe if they took better care of the training and maintenance of what they already have, and not waste resources on buying such things as old obsolete Russian equipment, they would have a more plausible case.

[PeteC]

Yes, do it....and cancel the crazy submarine(s). Pete

[PeteC]

Here's a letter from the BP elaborating on what you were saying Nereus. Pete

"Copter aerodynamics

Those investigating the recent helicopter crashes should consider the possibility that all three entered the ''vortex ring state'' while under the ''dead man's curve''.

Those are terms of art in helicopter aerodynamics. A helicopter enters the vortex ring state by trying to descend too fast at a forward speed too low. The main rotor swallows its own prop wash, and the helicopter loses almost all lift. It starts to fall like a rock and may spin on the way down because the tail rotor still produces thrust. Any helicopter can enter a vortex ring state if improperly flown.

A pilot can recover from the vortex ring state by executing a fast control manoeuvre to enter ''autorotation'', a state of descent in which the rotor acts like a parachute.

Autorotational recovery is impossible, however, if the helicopter is too low and flying too slow. The plot of altitude versus speed for autorotational recovery is called the dead man's curve, and helicopter pilots should stay out of it.

I write as an aeronautical engineer and professor with a PhD from the California Institute of Technology, with a good deal of experience in helicopter accident forensics. I wish the Thai army the best of luck in their investigation.

STEVEN CROW"