What does it really mean?
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Limey711
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A little more info," the whole nine yards". Machine gun belted ammunition, that was used for the guns on second world war U.S. planes, were nine yards long, when the pilots returned to base after a mission and they said they had used the whole nine yards, meant the guns were empty.
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Wanderlust
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Knickers, I believe, is a shortening of knickerbockers, although as far as I know these were never underwear; how ladies underwear (generally) came to use this term I have no idea. The term for stealing you refer to is also used in England (and probably originated there) but it is spelt nick not knick. I have lifted this definition from http://english2american.com/index.html#indexprcscct wrote:How about knickers?
We know what it means but some confusion there. Earlier Dawn said "trousers". In the States I've heard it to mean underwear. 'Knick" is also USA slang for stealing. Stealing trousers?Anyway, why the word for the meaning? Pete
nick v. 1. Steal. To nick something is to steal it. Likewise, something you buy from a dodgy bloke over a pint has quite probably been nicked. In a strange paradox, if a person is described as nicked, it means they've been arrested and if a person is in the nick, they're in prison. 2. Condition. Commonly used in the phrase "in good nick", the nick of something is the sort of state of repair it's in. Seen in contexts like "Think I'll buy that car; it seems in pretty good nick".
Incidentally that site is well worth a read - it is hilarious sometimes! I have actually contributed to the site (see 'smeg')
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DawnHRD
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I didn't say trousers!! I think I might have said "pants", which you Americans use as trousers, but we use to mean underwear, the same as knickers!prcscct wrote:How about knickers?
We know what it means but some confusion there. Earlier Dawn said "trousers". In the States I've heard it to mean underwear. 'Knick" is also USA slang for stealing. Stealing trousers?
"The question is not, can they reason? Nor, can they talk? But, can they suffer?" - Jeremy Bentham, philosopher, 1748-1832
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Red Herring
A red herring is an alternative, somewhat old fashioned, name for a smoked herring. Such fish have a very strong smell and were usually known, not as kippers, but as red herrings in many parts of 19th century Britain. Because of their smell they were good at masking other smells; as a result they could easily cover the scent of a fox. A red herring pulled across the trail could divert the hounds onto a false path. Thus, by analogy, the phrase could have come to be used to describe any false trail
The Whole Nine Yards
Could be a mediaeval test requiring the victim to walk nine paces over hot coals
Son of a gun:
The phrase might have originated as 'son of a military man' (i.e. a gun). The most commonly repeated version in this strand is that the British Navy used to allow women to live on naval ships. Any child born on board who had uncertain paternity would be listed in the ship's log as 'son of a gun'. While it is attestable fact that, although the Royal navy had rules against it, they did turn a blind eye to women (wives or prostitutes) joining sailors on voyages, so this version has plausibility on its side.
A red herring is an alternative, somewhat old fashioned, name for a smoked herring. Such fish have a very strong smell and were usually known, not as kippers, but as red herrings in many parts of 19th century Britain. Because of their smell they were good at masking other smells; as a result they could easily cover the scent of a fox. A red herring pulled across the trail could divert the hounds onto a false path. Thus, by analogy, the phrase could have come to be used to describe any false trail
The Whole Nine Yards
Could be a mediaeval test requiring the victim to walk nine paces over hot coals
Son of a gun:
The phrase might have originated as 'son of a military man' (i.e. a gun). The most commonly repeated version in this strand is that the British Navy used to allow women to live on naval ships. Any child born on board who had uncertain paternity would be listed in the ship's log as 'son of a gun'. While it is attestable fact that, although the Royal navy had rules against it, they did turn a blind eye to women (wives or prostitutes) joining sailors on voyages, so this version has plausibility on its side.
DawnHHDRC wrote:I didn't say trousers!! I think I might have said "pants", which you Americans use as trousers, but we use to mean underwear, the same as knickers!prcscct wrote:How about knickers?
We know what it means but some confusion there. Earlier Dawn said "trousers". In the States I've heard it to mean underwear. 'Knick" is also USA slang for stealing. Stealing trousers?
No idea why we call trousers, pants. Then again, pants is an abbrev of a french word as well. Perhaps one of our frequent spats with the french? Let's not get our knickers in a twist now though. Sometimes it is best to go knickerless, especially in the tropics. Pete
Yeah this is pretty spot on, except the term 'son of a gun' came from when a ship moored in port all the 'prowler' women came on board. The place that 'suited' for the 'couples' was often between the gun carriages or (perhaps even over the gun carriages!) Hence any kids born were termed 'son of a guns' to point to the origin of where they were conceived!Jockey wrote:Red Herring
Son of a gun:
The phrase might have originated as 'son of a military man' (i.e. a gun). The most commonly repeated version in this strand is that the British Navy used to allow women to live on naval ships. Any child born on board who had uncertain paternity would be listed in the ship's log as 'son of a gun'. While it is attestable fact that, although the Royal navy had rules against it, they did turn a blind eye to women (wives or prostitutes) joining sailors on voyages, so this version has plausibility on its side.
Heres one for you... Origins of the phrases....
'Tell it to the Marines'.
And
'The Black Market'.
I think both derive from the mid 17th century:Rider wrote:
Heres one for you... Origins of the phrases....
'Tell it to the Marines'.
And
'The Black Market'.
Tell it to the marines - if its a strange 'fishy' story, tell it to the marines and they will confirm if its true or not!
The Black Market - fire damaged goods from the great fire of London?
What Jockey says sounds reasonable. "marines" is for sure referring to the British Royal Marines of long ago, not the USA grunts. There was a movie of the same name though, made back in the 1920's, 30's?
Black market sounds good also. Way back when, the word black had evil connotations, whether it be a person, a witch, a cat, magic, the night, etc. A fire though sounds more plausible, where damaged goods were perhaps looted and re-sold by thieves. Pete
Black market sounds good also. Way back when, the word black had evil connotations, whether it be a person, a witch, a cat, magic, the night, etc. A fire though sounds more plausible, where damaged goods were perhaps looted and re-sold by thieves. Pete
This is from the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, London;
'Tell it to the Marines'
The version of the origin of the phrase Tell it to the Marines, approved by the Royal Marines tells, of a typically wise and experienced officer of the Maritime Regiment (the forerunner of today’s Royal Marines) verifying a yarn about flying fish for the benefit of King Charles II in the 1660s. Even then, Marines had been everywhere, done everything, and knew everything worth knowing..... Unfortunately this version was actually invented by the novelist W. P. Drury (a retired Lieutenant Colonel of the Royal Marines) in the 1900s.
An earlier reference, more in keeping with the contemporary meaning of the phrase, is found in an anonymous work of naval fiction, The Post Captain; or, The Wooden Walls well manned: comprehending a view of naval society and manners (London: 1806). In this, Captain Brilliant, of HMS Desdemona, when a tale started to grow too tall for his taste, was given to saying, 'You may tell that to the Marines, but I'll be d----d if the Sailors will believe it!'.
'Tell it to the Marines'
The version of the origin of the phrase Tell it to the Marines, approved by the Royal Marines tells, of a typically wise and experienced officer of the Maritime Regiment (the forerunner of today’s Royal Marines) verifying a yarn about flying fish for the benefit of King Charles II in the 1660s. Even then, Marines had been everywhere, done everything, and knew everything worth knowing..... Unfortunately this version was actually invented by the novelist W. P. Drury (a retired Lieutenant Colonel of the Royal Marines) in the 1900s.
An earlier reference, more in keeping with the contemporary meaning of the phrase, is found in an anonymous work of naval fiction, The Post Captain; or, The Wooden Walls well manned: comprehending a view of naval society and manners (London: 1806). In this, Captain Brilliant, of HMS Desdemona, when a tale started to grow too tall for his taste, was given to saying, 'You may tell that to the Marines, but I'll be d----d if the Sailors will believe it!'.
Steve G! You have the groove on the Marines one! Correct.
Although it is disputed oldest reason of the black market one is comes from the medieval joust.
In days of olde England 1200s - 1500s when a joust/tournament was held all the knights would ride in and have a right to-do in jousting/fighting melees and all the usual medievil fun and games. The winners of the tournaments often tended to be masterless veteran knights from the remote shires or veteran fighters. The nature of wearing armour is that if it isn't 'sand scrubbed' (the brillo pad of the day!) the plate armour becomes tarnished and blackened. The hard-living, no frills life-style and poorer status also meant these warriors were known as black knights when they entered the tourney! It is remarked that they tended to be superior fighters over the more sedentry and settled home county knights who were less rough and tumble and often the loser.
When the tournament finished the losing knights could end up betting their armour, weapons and horse to the winners as winnings.
Whenever this happened a market was erected for the 'black knights' to sell on the armour to the highest bidder for easy to carry coin!
Now the haste to sell and be done with the cumbersome armour etc meant the official market value was ignored and some real bargin basement prices could be had! The eager buyers were often the original owners!
From this practice it became known as the Black Market!
Although it is disputed oldest reason of the black market one is comes from the medieval joust.
In days of olde England 1200s - 1500s when a joust/tournament was held all the knights would ride in and have a right to-do in jousting/fighting melees and all the usual medievil fun and games. The winners of the tournaments often tended to be masterless veteran knights from the remote shires or veteran fighters. The nature of wearing armour is that if it isn't 'sand scrubbed' (the brillo pad of the day!) the plate armour becomes tarnished and blackened. The hard-living, no frills life-style and poorer status also meant these warriors were known as black knights when they entered the tourney! It is remarked that they tended to be superior fighters over the more sedentry and settled home county knights who were less rough and tumble and often the loser.
When the tournament finished the losing knights could end up betting their armour, weapons and horse to the winners as winnings.
Whenever this happened a market was erected for the 'black knights' to sell on the armour to the highest bidder for easy to carry coin!
Now the haste to sell and be done with the cumbersome armour etc meant the official market value was ignored and some real bargin basement prices could be had! The eager buyers were often the original owners!
From this practice it became known as the Black Market!
Good stuff, but does #2 definition above cover "in the nick of time"?Wanderlust wrote:Knickers, I believe, is a shortening of knickerbockers, although as far as I know these were never underwear; how ladies underwear (generally) came to use this term I have no idea. The term for stealing you refer to is also used in England (and probably originated there) but it is spelt nick not knick. I have lifted this definition from http://english2american.com/index.html#index
nick v. 1. Steal. To nick something is to steal it. Likewise, something you buy from a dodgy bloke over a pint has quite probably been nicked. In a strange paradox, if a person is described as nicked, it means they've been arrested and if a person is in the nick, they're in prison. 2. Condition. Commonly used in the phrase "in good nick", the nick of something is the sort of state of repair it's in. Seen in contexts like "Think I'll buy that car; it seems in pretty good nick".
Incidentally that site is well worth a read - it is hilarious sometimes! I have actually contributed to the site (see 'smeg')
Pete