I sent this as a PM to Terry being the only fish expert I know, but I thought I should post it here also in case there are any Koi Carp experts in town or in case anyone knows where I can take one of the sick (or dead) fish to be diagnosed.
I have a back yard Koi pond With a three stage bio filter and two pumps. One large 5hp centrifugal pump powers a two meter high, good volume waterfall. I have this one on a timer so that the waterfall runs two hours out of every six (on two, off four). I also have a 1/8 hp submersible pump that runs continuously and provides pressure for two pond sprinklers to keep the water aerated well. The large water fall pump draws water both from the main pond and from the third (clean) stage of the biofilter. The submersible pump is in this third (clean stage) and the water from this pump is pushed through a UV filter before exiting through the sprinklers to keep it clear and algae free. We also have several water plants submerged in pots.
We drain and replace (80 to 90%) of the pond water, clean the plastic balls in the first bio stage, replace the white filter material in the second bio stage and clean all three filter compartments about every two months.
The water is crystal clear and the fish have always been healthy and seem happy. Now, for no apparent reason five days ago we started losing one fish per day, starting with the biggest (oldest) fish in the pond. We've lost five of our big, over three year old, Koi now and it is heartbreaking watching these old friends go one by one.
I isolated and closely examined the one that died yesterday and I could see nothing wrong with him except that his tail was a little bit ragged on the ends. The gills, eyes, mouth, and side fins looked fine as did the skin of the fish. My wife dealt with one that died when I wasn't home so I didn't see that one but she said he had little white spots or ulcerations on his skin. I didn't see that on the one I examined closely yesterday.
Since the first death we have been watching them and their behavior closely and you can tell which will be the next to go as one or two will isolate themselves from the "pack" in another part of the pond and become lethargic, mostly sitting on the bottom. Also, we have a local kind of sucker fish in the pond (around 5 of them) to help keep it clean and my wife said she saw the sucker fish actually sucking on or eating something from the skin of the last fish that died.
The fish are not gasping or have any oxygen starvation behavior. I suspect a parasite or bacteria of some kind but we have always treated the water with salt, Malachite Green F, and another liquid called Monitor for aquariums. These treatments were recommended by a friend who also kept Koi (he is out of the country and unreachable at the moment) and we've used all three every time we clean and replace the water.
Does anyone have any ideas or know any Koi Carp experts that could diagnose my problem before I lose all the fish?
Thanks,
hh
Dying Koi Carp
Dying Koi Carp
My brain is like an Internet browser; 12 tabs are open and 5 of them are not responding, there's a GIF playing in an endless loop,... and where is that annoying music coming from?
No expert HHF but I've had koi for a long time as well and they are hard to kill. My pond is not nearly as fancy or clean and they seem to be able to survive well, similar to conditions in a pond or klong here, they're hardy fish.
They only two things I keep in mind are; 1) sometimes they go into shock if you change all the water in the pond at once and put them back in. Some kind of problem due to water chemical balance. However, I understand this is an issue more with smaller, baby fish rather than fully grown. The key is to put them into a bucket with old water and let the new water sit for a few hours before they go back in again. 2) Keep the sprayers who come and spray for bugs away from the pond. Jut a small amount of that stuff in the water will kill them. Had it happen twice in Pattaya and now here I don't even let the spray guys within 10 meters of the pond. Pete
EDIT: I forgot, how about just old age? I have no idea the normal longevity for a carp.
They only two things I keep in mind are; 1) sometimes they go into shock if you change all the water in the pond at once and put them back in. Some kind of problem due to water chemical balance. However, I understand this is an issue more with smaller, baby fish rather than fully grown. The key is to put them into a bucket with old water and let the new water sit for a few hours before they go back in again. 2) Keep the sprayers who come and spray for bugs away from the pond. Jut a small amount of that stuff in the water will kill them. Had it happen twice in Pattaya and now here I don't even let the spray guys within 10 meters of the pond. Pete
EDIT: I forgot, how about just old age? I have no idea the normal longevity for a carp.
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Terry
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HHFARANG
I'm replying here for all to see.
Firstly, whilst I do have a lot of Khoi Carp, I would not say that I am an expert in them.
However, I would agree with Pete's comments re any chance of pesticides being involved.
Also, I would suggest that you are being 'too clean' with your water changes.
Fish do not like a change to their environment and you can do more harm than good by changing their water too often. Khoi are indeed fairly hardy.
Where are you getting your 'fresh' water from?
Most water in Hua Hin is extremely hard and whilst Khoi are quite ok in hard water, if it is fresh from the mains / well, then it may contain larger quantities of calcium than their gills can initially deal with.
This in turn will lower their resistance to infection or ability to deal with parasitic fungii.
I would support Pete's view re letting the fish remain in some of the existing water before putting them back into the 'fresh' stuff - which I would allow to stand for at least 24 hours before reintroducing the fish.
Always ensure that the old water is well aerated in the container that you should use. One of the big plastic storage boxes out of Tesco will do the job and a simple cheap compressor with the air line weighted down with a brick. This is what we do when we clean out our concrete pond at the lodge - usually no more than every 8 - 10 weeks between cleaning.
Hope this helps
I'm replying here for all to see.
Firstly, whilst I do have a lot of Khoi Carp, I would not say that I am an expert in them.
However, I would agree with Pete's comments re any chance of pesticides being involved.
Also, I would suggest that you are being 'too clean' with your water changes.
Fish do not like a change to their environment and you can do more harm than good by changing their water too often. Khoi are indeed fairly hardy.
Where are you getting your 'fresh' water from?
Most water in Hua Hin is extremely hard and whilst Khoi are quite ok in hard water, if it is fresh from the mains / well, then it may contain larger quantities of calcium than their gills can initially deal with.
This in turn will lower their resistance to infection or ability to deal with parasitic fungii.
I would support Pete's view re letting the fish remain in some of the existing water before putting them back into the 'fresh' stuff - which I would allow to stand for at least 24 hours before reintroducing the fish.
Always ensure that the old water is well aerated in the container that you should use. One of the big plastic storage boxes out of Tesco will do the job and a simple cheap compressor with the air line weighted down with a brick. This is what we do when we clean out our concrete pond at the lodge - usually no more than every 8 - 10 weeks between cleaning.
Hope this helps
I think Terry is formulating some suggestions as I write this that he will post here for the benefit of all.
More info: Two more deaths and at least two more sick. We have now created an isolation facility where we are moving the ones to that appear to be ill. My wife is giving them a salt bath (in a separate bucket) before we move them to the hospital pool.
Upon close examination of the other deceased ones and sick ones, they all have ragged tail fins and dorsal fins. A couple have patches on their bodies where it looks like they have lost scales or the scales are loose. The sick ones have two distinct behaviors; some just sit on the bottom by themselves and some race around the pond jumping, in fact one jumped out right in front of me and I had to scramble to grab him and put him back.
Anyway, the two that are still alive but showing symptoms have been isolated and we are doing an 80% water change and retreatment in the main pond to try to save the rest.
We introduced seven new fish about three weeks ago so maybe a parasite came with them. I thought that would show signs right away, but according to at least one internet site I read, it can take up to a month for healthy fish to become sick from an unhealthy one being added to a pond the size of ours.
Fingers crossed we can save a few of the ones who have been with us for years!
More info: Two more deaths and at least two more sick. We have now created an isolation facility where we are moving the ones to that appear to be ill. My wife is giving them a salt bath (in a separate bucket) before we move them to the hospital pool.
Upon close examination of the other deceased ones and sick ones, they all have ragged tail fins and dorsal fins. A couple have patches on their bodies where it looks like they have lost scales or the scales are loose. The sick ones have two distinct behaviors; some just sit on the bottom by themselves and some race around the pond jumping, in fact one jumped out right in front of me and I had to scramble to grab him and put him back.
Anyway, the two that are still alive but showing symptoms have been isolated and we are doing an 80% water change and retreatment in the main pond to try to save the rest.
We introduced seven new fish about three weeks ago so maybe a parasite came with them. I thought that would show signs right away, but according to at least one internet site I read, it can take up to a month for healthy fish to become sick from an unhealthy one being added to a pond the size of ours.
Fingers crossed we can save a few of the ones who have been with us for years!
My brain is like an Internet browser; 12 tabs are open and 5 of them are not responding, there's a GIF playing in an endless loop,... and where is that annoying music coming from?
Hi Terry, thanks for the response.
We were making our last two posts at the same time.
As for pesticides, the guys who spray the house and garden are well aware to stay far clear of the pond and in fact they are coming today so they haven't been here in a month (at least 24 days before the first fish death).
That was an estimate on time between water changes. We change (80%) of the water and clean the bio filter whenever the water starts to murk up to the point that we can't see the fish well. It could range from six weeks to six months depending on how clear the water stays. We never do a 100% water change and always leave just enough in the low end so that we also do not have to move the fish during the filter cleaning and water changing. They seem to be used to the routine and just sit quietly in a group in the small amount of water we leave in. I also put a dribbling hose over the edge of that end to keep their smaller environment aerated while we do the cleaning.
We use city water straight from the mains.
Right now we are keeping the sick ones in one of those big black cement mixing tubs and aerating it with a miniature makeshift waterfall using a hose until I can get out to get one of those little bubbler aerators.
We were making our last two posts at the same time.
As for pesticides, the guys who spray the house and garden are well aware to stay far clear of the pond and in fact they are coming today so they haven't been here in a month (at least 24 days before the first fish death).
That was an estimate on time between water changes. We change (80%) of the water and clean the bio filter whenever the water starts to murk up to the point that we can't see the fish well. It could range from six weeks to six months depending on how clear the water stays. We never do a 100% water change and always leave just enough in the low end so that we also do not have to move the fish during the filter cleaning and water changing. They seem to be used to the routine and just sit quietly in a group in the small amount of water we leave in. I also put a dribbling hose over the edge of that end to keep their smaller environment aerated while we do the cleaning.
We use city water straight from the mains.
Right now we are keeping the sick ones in one of those big black cement mixing tubs and aerating it with a miniature makeshift waterfall using a hose until I can get out to get one of those little bubbler aerators.
My brain is like an Internet browser; 12 tabs are open and 5 of them are not responding, there's a GIF playing in an endless loop,... and where is that annoying music coming from?
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malcolminthemiddle
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A neighbour had a similar problem. He found the the water was being poisoned/contaminated by some chemical that was being released slowly from the cement used to construct the pond?
The solution (if I remember rightly) was to drain the pond and seal the cement with a non toxic water resistant paint.
The solution (if I remember rightly) was to drain the pond and seal the cement with a non toxic water resistant paint.
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Terry
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I dont think that you are doing anything 'too wrong' other than the frequency of the water changes..
MIMs comment re ling the ponds may also help - it is not uncommon for leaching of the pond material to occur long after the initial fill
The water source could be your problem but if these are only recent events then you clearly have some sort of fungal infection which is affecting the fish.hhfarang wrote:................We use city water straight from the mains...........
MIMs comment re ling the ponds may also help - it is not uncommon for leaching of the pond material to occur long after the initial fill
When we had our pond installed (small, about 3M x 2M x 1/2M deep) they painted it with some kind of non-toxic sealer specifically to prevent a problem with fish. I didn't ask them to do it as no plan to get fish at the time, but they said they do it on all installations just in case. Seems like a common procedure. Pete
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Nice one Pete!What's happened HHF? You got us hooked and still wriggling on the line.
We never were able to figure out exactly what the culprit was. We've been doing this for years and have never had a big die-off from disease or parasites until now. We spoke to many "experts" and it seems that there are so many things it could have been and so many different treatments that we just took our best guess and as each fish started acting sick, we pulled them out and put them into the hospital tank after giving them a bath in a bucket of a nearly "all purpose" medicine and salt. Doing this we only saved one who actually showed symptoms.
The die-off stopped about ten days ago. We lost 16 of 36 Koi so we now have 19 remaining that did not get sick and one who became ill but somehow survived, but is still in isolation just to be on the safe side. If he continues to look and act healthy and eat (which they don't do when they are sick) I will return him to the main pond next week.
It was sad because we lost some of the older ones who were around 18 inches long and had been with us for years.
My brain is like an Internet browser; 12 tabs are open and 5 of them are not responding, there's a GIF playing in an endless loop,... and where is that annoying music coming from?
Well, sour/sweet news. At least it stopped and you have some left. Hope it doesn't happen again. Pete
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hockeyrick
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Re: Dying Koi Carp
Do you ever take a comprehensive water sample and test it?
Water chemistry is essential!
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HuaHin
Water chemistry is essential!
Aqua Solutions
HuaHin
So Cal guy into a lot!
Re: Dying Koi Carp
No, have never tested the water in 4 years and have only had this one die off (well, two, but one was caused by a pump failure that starved the fish of oxygen) a few days after adding some new fish so I think I may have introduced a virus or parasite and the strongest survived.
I have dual filters and add recommended chemicals (medicinal) and a bit of salt to the water and it is usually clear and the fish healthy and happy.
I have dual filters and add recommended chemicals (medicinal) and a bit of salt to the water and it is usually clear and the fish healthy and happy.
My brain is like an Internet browser; 12 tabs are open and 5 of them are not responding, there's a GIF playing in an endless loop,... and where is that annoying music coming from?
Re: Dying Koi Carp
First let me say, I know zero about raising Koi. However I have a Thai friend who is VERY into Koi. This is his passion in so far as he just bought some that he paid 30,000 baht for.We introduced seven new fish about three weeks ago so maybe a parasite came with them.
He told me that a quarantine of about a month is required before introducing new fish to your pond. This is for parasites. He said parasites have a 9 day cycle and it takes 3 applications of the medication before they can be assured of being clean.
Hope this helps.....