The Chinese in Thailand

[Jaime]

I saw this in another thread and didn't want to pollute it with what could have become a significant wander off-topic.:

I still can't get my head around how the chinese took over thailand and convinced the thais that being chinese was superior.

I don't believe that the Thais think they are inferior to the Chinese. Or to anyone else for that matter. As Mrs Jaime says "I wely ploud I am one hullerd per cen Thai!"

It should go without saying that the Chinese seem to have more business acumen but the Thais I know would certainly not regard the Chinese as superior. They would certainly never voice that opinion even if they believed it.

The Chinese have been successful business people all over the world, not only Thailand. In Thailand however, they have been able to assimilate due to their physical similarities.

And exactly how 'Chinese' are the Sino-Thais? I have never ever heard Chinese spoken amongst relatives running shops in Hua Hin or Bangkok. Almost all Sino-Thais have Thai names. I read an article in the BKK post some years ago about mass re-naming ceremonies, where Sino-Thais abandoned their Chinese family names in favour of auspicious Thai names. The reason? Because their Chinese names were holding them back in business due to prejudice from the pure-bred Thai business community!

On that topic, my wife's village is an outlying village about 10 km from the main amphur town. However, the amphur offices for that town are located in my wife's village, not in the main town. Why? Because it was considered that the Sino-Thai population in the real amphur town was too high, so the offices were relocated in the village containing a majority 'pure-bred' rural Thai population!

This post is a bit rambling and unstructured so I'll end with some questions:

Do the Sino-Thai population think of themselves as Thai or Chinese?

Are the red lanterns and Mae Kwan Im statues just a tenuous link to previous generations, now forgotten?

Do the Sino-Thais marry only Chinese or Sino-Thais?

Is there really a separate Sino-Thai community running the country or is this imagined?

If the Sino-Thais are indeed running Thailand, why does it seem to bother us farang more than the Thais?

I know people have opinions on this but only ever get a snapshot in relation to other topics. I'll be interested to read the responses.

[lomuamart]

I'll kick replies off, but I'm certainly no expert.
So, as a start, for me and for maybe many others, the heartland is the Northeast. I've spent a good bit of time around Buriram and Surin.
Sino-Thai just dosn't exist there, as far as I could see. Further up around the northeastern side, it's Lao - maybe more of an influence? Up north? I've never been able to make that out, but I hear conflicting opinions.
Down the Western side, well Burmese.
Bangkok? It's so cosmopolitan that it's difficult to judge. However, Sino-Thai's seem to have the power and money.
Down south? Again, no opinion.
As for your final questions, Jaime, I think any answer would revolve around where in Thailand you were talking about. BKK, the metropolis etc, I would reckon a lot of Sino-Thai.

[Jaime]

As for your final questions, Jaime, I think any answer would revolve around where in Thailand you were talking about. BKK, the metropolis etc, I would reckon a lot of Sino-Thai.

Well I'm trying to find out if there is any substance to all the negative vitriol directed at 'The Chinese' on numerous occasions on this and other websites, so I guess Hua Hin and Bangkok would be a good starting point as that seems to be where people are forming these negative opinions. I am interested because as stated above, it seems to be mainly us, the farangs, who complain about them.

I think I'll be able to get a grip on whether it is uninformed hearsay that results in the vitriol or if there is actually any substance to this idea of a controlling and malevolent distinct Sino-Thai community by the level of response this thread receives. In other words, if this thread goes quiet, that tells me its all bullshit! Thanks for kicking things off though Lomu.

[lomuamart]

My wife said "no problem with Sino-Thai" after I posted first time.
She wasn't interested in answering my follow-up questions, complaining "she was tired".

[Guess]

I don't believe that the Thais think they are inferior to the Chinese. Or to anyone else for that matter. As Mrs Jaime says "I wely ploud I am one hullerd per cen Thai!"

Lady Guess would agree song loi percent but is not so polite as Mrs. Jaime. If fact the most foul abuse I have heard from a woman was when the Chinese living at the back of us let off fireworks near to our back door at Chinese new Year.

I don't think the word superior was mentioned.

I learnt a lot of naughty Thai words that day which I am not allowed to repeat even to the dog when he has had a dump in the bathroom.

[Jaime]

She wasn't interested in answering my follow-up questions, complaining "she was tired".

I recognise that scenario - made me chuckle!

[Winkie]

In Singapore there are Singaporean-Chinese, and they want you to know it. In Malaysia there are Malysian-Chinese, and they want you to know it (certainly don't call them Malay!). In Indonesia is the same, sespite a Govt enforcementt of Indonseian names, many Chinese maintain Chinese names.

Howver, in Thailand as a Sino-Thai what he is an certainly he'll tell you he is Thai and nthing else.

In Thailand I find the integration of Thai and Chniese to be quite harmonious - certainly far elss problems that the neighbouring countries.

Yes, most Sino Thai look for another to wed, but I think that's not compulsory.

Winkie

[All Mod Cons]

My partner is "Thai Chinese", 3rd generation. Pretty much considers herself "Thai", deeply respectful of the Thai monarchy,many of its customs,speaks only Thai, has lots of "pure Thai" friends.She also observes some many Chinese traditions.
Her parents and granparents all bi-lingual. Never seen any real problems between them and the Thais, they seem to get along just fine. Though I have heard Thai people generalise about how stingy the Thai Chinese are and the Thai Chinese generalise how lazy the Thai are. All I can say is that from my experience my partners family have always been very generous and welcoming towards me. Far more so than the families of Thai women that I have been involved with in the past. That said, they are extremely "careful", they always get that last drop out of the washing up liquid, the plates always clean and I've never seen anyone squeeze a tube of toothpaste quite so dry.
Don't know why so many "farrang" have issues with Thai Chinese. I do however, stand to be corrected/educated.

[packie]

my wife is half thai/chinese, her father, now deceased spoke thai and chinese , though i think he was born in thailand, but he considered himself thai also, as my wife does, although she is also quarter indian and 1/8 cambodian ( i joke with her that the final 1/8 must be Laos, does not go down well).

most chinese seem to have arrivied as economic emmigrents, and like anywhere immigrents appear to do well as they are hungry and driven, thats why they emmigrated in the first place.
Another point is many chinese thai who came here are educated, this disportionatly exagerates how successful their commuinity is.

The names of chinese are added to to get new thai surname, usally 1 extra sylable is added at the end if i understand correctly.

I think in all but very rural areas in the central region there has been a lot of interracial marriage down through the generations, so many people follow chinese traditions, I to have survived the chinese new year celebration, scary :-)

I think most thai and farang regard the china community as hard working and welcome except the usual few racists in the barrel.

Just my few satang worth of opinion...

[PeteC]

The names of chinese are added to to get new thai surname, usally 1 extra sylable is added at the end if i understand correctly.

I think you're about spot on packie. I've been told the rule of thumb is that if the name is in excess of about 8 letters, the person is of Chinese heritage. I know many Thai/Chinese here with names like Singratankul, i.e, what their ancestors decided upon when the last name program happened as explained in an earlier post.

I also know some Thai women who have married into Chinese families. Most have smooth sailing, but some have difficulties in that the Chinese M in L wants them to dress, act and look Chinese and also likes to raise the children. My ex wife's aunt a case in point, very difficult environment. Hopefully just the exception. They are Bangkok Chinese from an old, established family with money so maybe that contributes. Pete

[Jaime]

I interrogated Mrs Jaime on this subject today, coincidentally on the way back from the Chinese cash & carry. Here are some of my questions and her answers:

Q. What do you think of the Chinese in Thailand - good or bad?
A. Good. Everything good. Never have problems like with the muslims!

Q. Do you think of them as Thai or as Chinese?
A. Thai. They just remember their Chinese family on 'Chinese Day.'

Q. Do you think that the Thai Chinese are different from Chinese people coming to Thailand now?
A. Yes. People from China are really Chinese and the ones in Thailand are really Thai.

Q. Do you think the Chinese control Thailand?
A. How do you mean control?
Q. In government and business.
A. No! (indignantly) You must be Thai in government.

Q. Do you think the Chinese are superior to the Thais?
A. No! (indignant again)

Q. Do you think the Chinese are cleverer than the Thais?
A. Yes ..... no, not more clever but they work more hard - like the Indians, they are the same. They work hard.

End of interview.

[smiles]

" ... So, as a start, for me and for maybe many others, the heartland is the Northeast. I've spent a good bit of time around Buriram and Surin.
Sino-Thai just dosn't exist there, as far as I could see... "

Thailand is nothing if not a land of fabulous irony.

Thaksin Shinawatra (now 'Of Mayfair' apparently) is a full-on Chinese-Thai from Chiang Mai.
The base of his support was in the countryside, and most especially in the Northeast . . . where there are very few Chinese-Thai (relatively). Needless to say there is probably much truth to the idea that he 'bought' their votes (the million-baht village give-a-way and the 30-baht health scheme), but whatever, he remained very popular there until the end.

More irony, the coup which recently overthrew him was essentially a Bangkok staged and planned event . . . a city brimming with Chinese-Thai business people, upper Army dudes, and higher bureaucrats: "his"people one would think, but they dumped him without looking back.

Cheers ...

[Guess]

The discussion regarding Chinese influence in Thailand can go on for ever. Anthropological experts are still unsure of the scale of influence. Unlike certain civilisations such as those in South America and Asia Minor this part of the world has more or less been overloooked as a subject for study.

What is generally accepted though is that the Thai are one of the more recent civilisations on the planet. This may have been because the region was not so hospitable 3000 years ago. I have seen sea shells in perfect condition around Krabi at a current altitude of 300 metres indicating that much of southern Thailand was isolated by land until relatively recently. As for the larger portion of Thailand, the descendants of the current Thai originated in what would now be western Mongolia. No-one is really sure when the migration south took place but it was surely at least 20,000 years after their close relatives the Amerindians migrated in a North Easterly direction. Evidence can be seen today by comparing the facial features of some Thai with Amerindians from all parts of the American continents.

The Asians who later became Thai would have almost certainly mixed over the millenia with the Sino-Tibetan races whereas those migrating North Easterly would not have encountered many other humans on their long journey. When they arrive in Thailand they would have found a race of people already here but in small numbers that would probably now have either interbred and fully integrated with the new inhabitants or become extinct.

So to start with, (excepting the original inhabitants who were probably more closely related to Malays, Polynesian or Australasians than modern Thai or Sino-Tibetan), the peoples already had a great deal of Chinese blood. What set them aside from the Sino-Tibetans was that they had their own language family which was unrelated to any of the other families in the region. It is still a powerful language and is spoken as a first language by people in seven modern countries.

Much more recently (less than 1000 years but mostly in the last 400 years) Chinese have been moving south from the regions north of Lao into Thailand, either directly or by way of modern day Vietnam or Cambodia. The main reason for this recent migration was to avoid starvation. This is another major factor that differentiates the Chinese and Thai. The Chinese have suffered many periods of prolonged drought and lack of food. As far as we can make out the the Thai people have never had to suffer from hunger. This difference causes a completely different inherent philosophy.

The recent Chinese immigrants in Thailand have integrated so well into the Thai economy that they are almost unnoticeable. There are many areas though where they are the dominant race. Chon Buri, Chang Mai and many of the larger cities in Isan are Chinese. There is also a large Chinese population in Had Yai in the South. These more recent immigrants tend to keep within their own communities. They are natural traders and in most parts of Thailand you will find that most of the larger merchants are Chinese. If you can not tell the difference facially between a Thai and a Chinese you will certainly notice in a store some Chinese writing somewhere. Additionally you will find that they will be closed during Chinese New Year.

The Chinese form an integral part of the Thai economy certainly in the Bangkok region and all areas north of Bangkok.

I have been trying to study the subject for a couple of years now and keep coming up with contradictions. However what I have written above is what is currently believed to be the case bearing in mind that the study of linguistics and genetics has advanced in leaps and bounds over the past two decades.

Whatever anybody thinks about Chinese presence anywhere in the world, the fact is that people of Chinese race have settled in nearly every country of the world and as far as I am aware the vast majority are industrious and an asset to their host nations. They are also the most numerous race on Earth with at least 20% of all humans being of Chinese race. About 7% (out of the total human population) do not live in China or have even been there.

BTW to put that in perspective 7% represents more than double the population of the US.

[johnnyk]

My 2 satang here.
I had a homestay student 9 years ago in Canada, from BKK.
I met her for lunch this past summer and she is now 26 years old working for Deutsche Bank. She quite casually referred to herself as "overseas Chinese". Her family came south about 100 years ago she said and took Thai names.

Segueing to "overseas Chinese" I recommend an excellent book by long-time Asian journalist Sterling Seagrave (son of the Burma Surgeon) called Lords of the Rim: the hidden empire of the overseas Chinese.

Basically, they own SE Asia but let others operate it on the surface.
In Indonesia they have long had an agreement to let the army run political things while they looked after the real nuts and bolts.

Many of the seriously powerful and super-rich (including Li Ka-Shing and Stanley Ho in H.K., the Sophonpanich family in BKK and others) have their roots in the same small villages in southeast China.
Li alone controls close to 15% of the world's container ports. Stanley Ho controls Macau where the volume of gambling is greater than Las Vegas. Both quite serious business.
Sophonpanich pere started up Bangkok Bank after WW2 and it is now controlled by his offspring. Our friend Mr. T came out of nowhere to build a telecom empire, start a political party and lead it to power in less than 10 years. This would not have been a cheap undertaking.
Connect the dots, Mr. T is Chinese; IMO he was the political face of the real masters.
And who bought the Shin shares in the Thai deal of the century?
That's right the gov't of Singapore through its holding company Temasek. Check the names of the Temasek bosses.
Which ethnic group controls the government and commerce of S'pore?
Connect the dots and you're there etc etc etc.

[Guess]

Good stuff Johnny.

I have been aware of the dots but on all of my impatient efforst have hot the deadend of duplicate family names. However certain names keep appearing in any research into any of these corporate dealings that cannot possibly be explained by coincidence.

What makes research difficult for some Chinese is that much business is conducted in Cantonese and not readily understood by the majority. I believe that was one of the reasons why Mao enforced the use of a standard character set but that may just hearsay.