Tales of Woe effecting the Economy, Where will it End????

[sargeant]

You ignore me mr burgher because you dont want the correct answers to get out on the street

So i will ask you again HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO PAY THE CHANOTE HOLDER (cos you cannot hold it) TO RENEW THE NEXT 30 YEARS LEASE.

Ps i dont give a rats arse how much you pay the land office nereus answered that

[Burger]

From the lease contracts I've ever seen, take your pick from any of the following:

a) 0 Baht
b) Zero
c) Zilch
d) Nothing
e) F*** All
f) Not a bean
g) Free of charge
h) mai mee dung
i) Gratis

Expensive, isn't it ?
Yes, I can see now how I didn't want that getting out on the street, as you put it.

Burger

[canada1]

I think i am afraid to ask this question on here with bad feelings around.

Here goes.

My understanding is that the longstay company is in fact a private company and not 30% owned by the TAT.

We have found this out through our lawyer, we have also been advised that the lease system is a non starter for us.

We have many friends around here who just cant sell their property at present, also as others will know many bars are also trying to sell property with no luck.

One friend has his entire stock for sale in his bar, again no takers.

What has happened to the property market here as its as dead as a do-do.
Is it really just the economy?

Steve.

[sargeant]

Small question Burgher WHY DID you NOT put it in an answer because it seems pretty good to me and on every other good thing you can find spurious as some of them are you trumpet like you were in Jericho not Hua Hin

Except its only what YOU have SEEN and doesnt quite gel with what beguine is suggesting are, and i emphasize only possible problems and possible outcomes which will only come out in time
which is another interesting point you never seem to challenge beguine on anything

And i just cannot see someone sat there with a chanote worth gazzillions just gaily signing it over for sparrow shit for another 30 years when there is no legal standing for it

But on this website it is an open forum and as i have said if they walk through your door and hand you their wedge no questions asked GOOD luck to YOU and tough on them if it goes pear shaped
But if they ask questions on this website they deserve answers as correct as anyone can be and not deliberately mislead
WE I and YOU are the only 2 optimistic for the future I agreed with you that the banks are looking into mortgages using falang income to finance them
Yet you rubbish thai farang relationships you user derogatory speak (you smell quote) you argue and denigrate the only person agreeing with you and slag him of at every turn and call me weird jeez my boy get your head out of your paranoid property dealers bum there is a nice world out here

[Jockey]

I think anyone buying property using a lease should have an in-built agreement to renew it every 5 years. That means the lease will never fall below 25 years before its expiration date. The downside is you need to pay tax each time you do this - I think 2.5 % of the "value" of the land (not house). Lets say a house worth 5 million is 3.5 million house, 1.5 million land - that equates to a tax fee of 37,500 baht every 5 years. The house is not leased - only the land.

BTW - I thought WL's earlier post to be excellent. The crazy thing is, everyone has a valid point of view. As Burger pointed out, people who have bought property have generally scored out of it, including the last 2 years. I can understand people warning of the risks, and there's certainly plenty of them, but surely there is no need for

[hogus]

I remember a thread you posted in two years ago this May, with people warning about property being taken away by the Governenment and buyers are only purchasing illusion's etc etc.

Exactly, my friend, and this warning is still valid and very actual IMO...may be even more actual as in the past, because the authorities hadn't any idea to start investigations about foreign developers, real estates etc. 2 years ago.
That the 'big sharks' are more interesting for the authorities in the moment than the 'small fishes' (normal house-buyers) shouldn't be a big surprise.
It means not, that they won't execute their own laws one time in future.
May be they do nothing, may be they'll liberate the laws for foreign-ownerships, may be they'll declare all contracts of purchase as illegal and offers another (expensive?) solution for foreigners to keep their houses for a while? ... Nobody can know it right now...it's just a gamble with high risks! ... Nothing else!

Most (not all) of the punters who walk through estate agents doors have never read stuff on sites like this, they just want to give you their money.

They are not even aware that you have to form a company or lease, they ask which is best, they get told what is best and they say "ok then, can I give you some money now please".
They get taken to a solicitor and ask the solicitor how long is the lease, they get told 30+30+30 and they say, "wow, that's a long time, can we give you our money now please".

They sign 4 page contracts without even reading them and give you their money.

They are not clued up, do not seek proper advice, they want their slice of paradise and they want it now.

Absolutely agreed, and that seems to be the clients the most of our developers and real-estate agents are waiting and hoping for, isn't it? So we shouldn’t speak about seriously, smart and clever investors, right?

Gamble etc, there are estates (the better ones) where houses were bought 3 years ago for 4m and now being sold for 7m. Those people have made 3m Baht

True! I also know a few guys, which had luck and could sale TH-houses with a nice win!
There are also some few Lottery and Casino-winners in the world, but the majority of "normal" house-buyers want to stay stress free in their property for decades, try to enjoy it and aren't running behind quick money.
Seems TH isn't the right place for these people in the moment?

HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO PAY THE CHANOTE HOLDER (cos you cannot hold it) TO RENEW THE NEXT 30 YEARS LEASE.

From the lease contracts I've ever seen, take your pick from any of the following:
a) 0 Baht ....

There is nobody right now, which could be able to approve that a lease-renew is free from any future payments, because the 30-years-lease is just a new "tactic" from people with vested real-estate interests to keep their business running!
In a country, where laws have a due date like plain yoghourt, I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

By the way, who wants to pay a whole house-price just for a 30-years-lease, include the unproved hope that he can get another 30-years-lease without any additional payment to the landlord or his heritages????
(May be just the same kind of clients, we spoke above already, right?)
But I suppose, all friendly developers and real-estate agents won’t be here anymore in 30 years from now , or will give a sh** what was happened 30 years ago!

It is a great place to live STRESS FREE but lawyers estate agents property developers politicions Just mean stress stress stress to me
and remember Land act sect 4 FOREIGNERS CANNOT OWN LAND

I can understand people warning of the risks, and there's certainly plenty of them, but surely there is no need for

Mates, I hadn't been able to say it better more!

[Burger]

double post

[Burger]

I think anyone buying property using a lease should have an in-built agreement to renew it every 5 years. That means the lease will never fall below 25 years before its expiration date. The downside is you need to pay tax each time you do this - I think 2.5 % of the "value" of the land (not house). Lets say a house worth 5 million is 3.5 million house, 1.5 million land - that equates to a tax fee of 37,500 baht every 5 years. The house is not leased - only the land.

BTW - I thought WL's earlier post to be excellent. The crazy thing is, everyone has a valid point of view. As Burger pointed out, people who have bought property have generally scored out of it, including the last 2 years. I can understand people warning of the risks, and there's certainly plenty of them, but surely there is no need for

That's exactly what I've been saying for a while now, renew it periodically.
Use the 'buy ouy' clause and take it off the developer into a friends/wifes/childs name.

Burger

[Burger]

I remember a thread you posted in two years ago this May, with people warning about property being taken away by the Governenment and buyers are only purchasing illusion's etc etc.

Exactly, my friend, and this warning is still valid and very actual IMO...may be even more actual as in the past, because the authorities hadn't any idea to start investigations about foreign developers, real estates etc. 2 years ago.
That the 'big sharks' are more interesting for the authorities in the moment than the 'small fishes' (normal house-buyers) shouldn't be a big surprise.
It means not, that they won't execute their own laws one time in future.
May be they do nothing, may be they'll liberate the laws for foreign-ownerships, may be they'll declare all contracts of purchase as illegal and offers another (expensive?) solution for foreigners to keep their houses for a while? ... Nobody can know it right now...it's just a gamble with high risks! ... Nothing else!
No ones had their houses taken away in the past two years have they ? but you still believe it may happen. Dream on.

Most (not all) of the punters who walk through estate agents doors have never read stuff on sites like this, they just want to give you their money.
They are not even aware that you have to form a company or lease, they ask which is best, they get told what is best and they say "ok then, can I give you some money now please".
They get taken to a solicitor and ask the solicitor how long is the lease, they get told 30+30+30 and they say, "wow, that's a long time, can we give you our money now please".
They sign 4 page contracts without even reading them and give you their money.
They are not clued up, do not seek proper advice, they want their slice of paradise and they want it now.

Absolutely agreed
Thank you Hogus.

Gamble etc, there are estates (the better ones) where houses were bought 3 years ago for 4m and now being sold for 7m. Those people have made 3m Baht

True! I also know a few guys, which had luck and could sale TH-houses with a nice win!
So we agree then.

HOW MUCH DO YOU HAVE TO PAY THE CHANOTE HOLDER (cos you cannot hold it) TO RENEW THE NEXT 30 YEARS LEASE.

From the lease contracts I've ever seen, take your pick from any of the following:
a) 0 Baht ....

By the way, who wants to pay a whole house-price just for a 30-years-lease, include the unproved hope that he can get another 30-years-lease without any additional payment to the landlord or his heritages????
(May be just the same kind of clients, we spoke above already, right?)
I think you answered your own question there

Burger

[PeteC]

I think i am afraid to ask this question on here with bad feelings around.

Don't be afraid but some of what you say doesn't jive.

Here goes.

My understanding is that the longstay company is in fact a private company and not 30% owned by the TAT.

TAT is the Tourist Authority of Thailand. Nothing to do with property. I'm lost with the 30%, unless you meant 30 years on a lease hold?

We have found this out through our lawyer, we have also been advised that the lease system is a non starter for us.

Why?

We have many friends around here who just cant sell their property at present, also as others will know many bars are also trying to sell property with no luck.

One friend has his entire stock for sale in his bar, again no takers.

Bars are a non-starter as an investment unless you really have a niche and a lot of experience and willing to spend money to make your ideas work. 95% of "farang bar owners" in Thailand don't have a clue as to what they're doing. Many are also here on the Thai girlfriend's nickle with no proper work permit or visa. They are living a dream, most to be dashed on the rocks in a year or two as the money runs out, 'trusted' partners turn out to be not so, and visa laws get tighter as has just happened. Houses, see below.

What has happened to the property market here as its as dead as a do-do.
Is it really just the economy?

It's not dead, just sleeping and waiting for a better day. There's nothing basically wrong with the economy except political confusion and a wait and see attitude. We're watching a new government baby grow up and going through all the usual teething pains. Pete

Steve.

PS: Someone please give him some additional specifics.

[Burger]

canada1 wrote:

My understanding is that the longstay company is in fact a private company and not 30% owned by the TAT.

I don't know Steve, but they say they are, this is what it says on their website:

Thai Longstay Management Company Limited (TLM), a private company which is 30% owned by the Tourism Authority of Thailand (TAT). The Company has been solely entrusted by the Royal Thai Government to promote Thailand as a prime destination for foreigners who wish to seek a long-term stay in Thailand.

Establishment
On 25 December 2001, the Cabinet approved the establishment of the Thai Longstay Management Company Limited. TLM was finally established on 11 September 2002 by registered capital 100 million Baht and additional registered capital up to 200 million Baht on 1 November 2005

Link to website:
http://www.thailongstay.co.th/en/profile/c_profile.php

Burger

[canada1]

I am sorry you did not get my point.

The bar owner has many of his property (houses) cant sell.

The lease is confusing.

Paying rent.

Paying rent is an essential element of a lease agreement (section 537 civil & commercial code) As a matter of law, without a rental fee it will not be "hire of property"!

Rent free will not be enforcable as hire of property. A new 30yr lease term can also not be registered as "rent free" or the leased price will be assesed by the land Department, what the lease price and fees should fees and taxes must be paid.

A clause in the lease, "it is hearby agreed that there shall be no further payments due for any renewals as the price shall cover the entire lease term however long it may be" is in court legally meaningless.

The lease term cannot exceed 30yrs and that is how long the entire lease term may be under Thai law.

Part of our lit from lawyer. confusing?

Steve

[Burger]

canada1

Paying rent is an essential element of a lease agreement (section 537 civil & commercial code) As a matter of law, without a rental fee it will not be "hire of property"!

Rent free will not be enforcable as hire of property. A new 30yr lease term can also not be registered as "rent free" or the leased price will be assesed by the land Department, what the lease price and fees should fees and taxes must be paid.

True, you have to pay the due taxes at the land office on the rent for the 30 year extension, but Sarge's question to me said he knew about that already and only wanted to know if you had to pay the land owner an additional fee to renew.

Burger

[hogus]

Exactly, my friend, and this warning is still valid and very actual IMO...may be even more actual as in the past, because the authorities hadn't any idea to start investigations about foreign developers, real estates etc. 2 years ago.
That the 'big sharks' are more interesting for the authorities in the moment than the 'small fishes' (normal house-buyers) shouldn't be a big surprise.
It means not, that they won't execute their own laws one time in future.
May be they do nothing, may be they'll liberate the laws for foreign-ownerships, may be they'll declare all contracts of purchase as illegal and offers another (expensive?) solution for foreigners to keep their houses for a while? ... Nobody can know it right now...it's just a gamble with high risks! ... Nothing else!
No ones had their houses taken away in the past two years have they ? but you still believe it may happen. Dream on.
The risk is still there, my friend! It's ok, if you want to ignore it, because of your vested interests or the possible need to earn money to stay here!
I said always "may be" and mentioned the different possibilites, which can't be ignored by smart people



Absolutely agreed,and that seems to be the clients the most of our developers and real-estate agents are waiting and hoping for, isn't it? So we shouldn’t speak about seriously, smart and clever investors, right?
Thank you Hogus.
You're welcome, my friend! I just add the important sentences you forgot to quote!

True! I also know a few guys, which had luck and could sale TH-houses with a nice win! There are also some few Lottery and Casino-winners in the world, but the majority of "normal" house-buyers want to stay stress free in their property for decades, try to enjoy it and aren't running behind quick money.
Seems TH isn't the right place for these people in the moment?
So we agree then.
Yessssssssss, we are!
By the way, who wants to pay a whole house-price just for a 30-years-lease, include the unproved hope that he can get another 30-years-lease without any additional payment to the landlord or his heritages????
(May be just the same kind of clients, we spoke above already, right?)
I think you answered your own question there
Exactly ! Thanks for your kind understanding, and that you're coming on my side now!

[PeteC]

OK, sorry. I'm out as it's going way beyond my specific knowledge. I will await the day of happier talk times. Pete