Poissoning Dogs

[DawnHRD]

Removal of dogs is not an option. If you remove your pack of dogs, another pack will move into their territory. Nature abhors a vacuum. There is obviously a food source (food stalls, rubbish bins, well-meaning locals) to support the pack. You take these dogs out of the equation (by removal or culling) more will move in to take advantage. Your existing pack is what is keeping others out. The only way of controlling the stray population is by CNR (catch, neuter, release). And by pet owners taking some responsibility for their pets. By that I mean neutering them (male & female), not letting them roam & not getting them when cute & cuddly & dumping them when grown (or dumping them when they move on to another country/relationship breaks up/whatever).

I've detailed some reasons & research supporting my (& every other farang run animal org in Thailand's) views here: http://www.huahinafterdark.com/forum/do ... t5684.html


Apart from the fact that you'll get new dogs moving in, Lindosfan, where are you going to house the ones removed? Who will care for them? Who will pay for their feeding, medical treatment & housing? HRD estimate that there 100,000 stray or partially owned dogs in the Hua Hin area. The Govt dispute that, but others who work with dogs here have agreed with us. How on earth are you going to house 100,000 dogs?

As I said in the linked thread, the only way around this (even according to the WHO) is to widespread neuter. Sustainable packs will eventually die off, leaving no more generations to follow them. But while they're alive, they will stop new dogs moving in. Aggression is reduced, because the sexual urge disappears & there is not the same need to fight for food. Culling doesn't work unless you kill every single female - every last one! That has been proven. Removal doesn't work. Sterilisation is the only thing that does. IMO, that applies equally for owned & stray dogs. They should all be neutered in a country where the stray problem is as huge as it is in Thailand.

[lindosfan1]

Dawn
As I said before I admire your work and offered you help a couple of times. I read through the other thread and it is obvious there is no chance of a quick short solution, therefore to solve the problem of people making idiotic comments that were made in the other thread one of them is banned (mind you he was depriving a village of its idiot). I will make no further comment
Thank you

[richard]

I know Dawn is going to hit me for this one!!

As I've said before, catch them all and ship them up to Isaan

They have fine noodle soup up there

Still waiting for a tongue in cheek emotican

[kendo]

Dawn with respect,100,000 stray dogs your policy on catch neuter and release, how would this be practical and who would fund this,i am an animal lover and have a 9 year old staffy but do you really think it is fair that Lindosfan can't even go for an evening strole with his retreaver or you can't even ride a bicycle down the soi,this is affecting people's lives,after all you come to Thailand for a more chilled, out door quality of life and this is a very big issue to a lot of people, i except it to some degree, because when in Thailand i spend most of my time in an Issan village.I think the only real practical thing to do is have a continuous program of humain distruction, i dont want to offen here,but i just think people's lives should not be blighted by these sad creatures, but i would never condone people taking this matter into there own hands let the authority's deal with them.Wot i would also like to Know is there any gated community's with a no dog policy when i eventually move to HH i will be very carefull where i buy because this will be an issue to me.The quality and safety of lives vs stray dogs more comments from expats on this please .

[richard]

Kendo

Although my last post was somewhat tongue in cheek, my experience of Isaan is the authorities, Thai elders will do nothing

Seen dogs slowly die over 5 days and no one lifts a finger

I am a true dog lover, having grown up with them since I was a baby

I'd help Dawn out if I could but my landlady who lives next door does not like dogs

Seems cruel in Isaan to let them die slowly and then use the carcass for stew pots

Offered once to the family to lend me their guns and I would put them out of their misery cleanly but I was refused and told not to interfere

Guess we have to live with it

As for every Thai loving dogs. They do if they clean up the scraps off the floor after eating and then they kick them out of the way

[DawnHRD]

Richard, this was written before your last post, which I've read & understand that the one before was tongue-in-cheek. I'm having trouble posting tonight - lousy connection. I'm still going to try & post this, because it may address some points.



Kendo,

Have you considered that this is a Buddhist country? Very few vets will euthanise for debilitating illness. None, that I know of, will euthanise for convenience.

The govt stopped poisoning (yes, that was their way, too - no such thing as humane destruction) a few years ago. I believe (but could be wrong) it was as a direct response to a plea from His Majesty the King.

I don't say the situation is good, or even ideal. But your 'quick fix' is ill thought out, I'm afraid.

So is Richard's. If every dog were transferred to Isaan or Vietnam for food, there would be a glut, that could not possibly be consumed. I'm not even going to start on morality or ethics here - just feasibility. Do either of you really think HH is the only place with this problem? It is Thailand wide. The problem is bigger than either of you seem to realise.

BTW, as for walking dogs; it can be done very easily. Just take a stick (bamboo cane or walking stick) with you & threaten any approaching soi dog with it. I've walked dogs all over HH using this strategy & never had a problem. Never had to actually hit a dog with the stick, either.

[Spitfire]

Unfortunately, this is common method of disposal, hear it all the time. Thais can be very unbuddist about things when it suits them, more so if they are not going to get caught, as in this case. If there was a convincing pest control which rounded up and disposed of the dogs that should be off the streets( e.g. the dogs that chase motorbikes, kids and farangs because they smell different or the ones that surround every temple), then there might be more latitude for the family, good natured types that are a pleasure too many people. A labrador is somewhat different to the average 20th generation mixed up to hell mongrol you usually bump into. Thailand does have a dog problem that they are unable or more likely unwilling to grip. Meanwhile, stories like this will continue and so will the stories of kids, farang etc getting attacked for no reason.

[kendo]

Kendo

Although my last post was somewhat tongue in cheek, my experience of Isaan is the authorities, Thai elders will do nothing

Seen dogs slowly die over 5 days and no one lifts a finger

I am a true dog lover, having grown up with them since I was a baby

I'd help Dawn out if I could but my landlady who lives next door does not like dogs

Seems cruel in Isaan to let them die slowly and then use the carcass for stew pots

Offered once to the family to lend me their guns and I would put them out of their misery cleanly but I was refused and told not to interfere

Guess we have to live with it

As for every Thai loving dogs. They do if they clean up the scraps off the floor after eating and then they kick them out of the way

Richard i dont know if you are trying to wind me up but reading your post, i dont think anyone would eat an animal that had been dieing for five days,i have spent alot of time up in Prasat Surin province and never seen anyone eating dog or cat never seen in markets for food or any soggestion of this , the wife reconds it is a practice that has died out in genral and is very rere now. There is hundreds of dogs around our village and i dont see anyone eating or trying to catch them.Dawn thankyou for that insite,you say "ill thought out" by me i am an animal lover a lot of people are NOT why should people pay good money to live in a nice soi and have there lives blighted by dogs barking,shit everywhere, kids cant play free and the feeling of being intimidated by dogs,this is very big issue, wot can be done ? i really dont think that to CNR all these dogs, how would the vets cope and who would fund this just cant see it being practical.

[Spitfire]

Hi Kendo,
Just wondering if you have ever seen those pickups with cages on the back driving around the villages asking people if there are any available dogs, I've seen them on the outskirts of Khon Kaen. What I've been told by the Thais is that they give you a plastic bowl or a bamboo,grass hat or fish catcher(something along those lines) in return for whisking away the errant dog. Then they tell me it's off to the chinese sausage factory. Not sure if it's true or whether I'm being hood winked. If you live in a village, then tell me what happens there.

[kendo]

Hi Kendo,
Just wondering if you have ever seen those pickups with cages on the back driving around the villages asking people if there are any available dogs, I've seen them on the outskirts of Khon Kaen. What I've been told by the Thais is that they give you a plastic bowl or a bamboo,grass hat or fish catcher(somethime along those lines) in return for whisking away the errant dog. Then they tell me it's off to the chinese sausage factory. Not sure if it's true or whether I'm being hood winked. If you live in a village, then tell me what happens there.

No never seen people rounding up dogs all my wife's family are farmers they will eat allsorts of things that we wont if anyone around that area did then i would now about it.I dont even want to get on to this as the thread is about poisoning dogs.

[DawnHRD]

.Dawn thankyou for that insite,you say "ill thought out" by me i am an animal lover a lot of people are NOT why should people pay good money to live in a nice soi and have there lives blighted by dogs barking,shit everywhere, kids cant play free and the feeling of being intimidated by dogs,this is very big issue, wot can be done ? i really dont think that to CNR all these dogs, how would the vets cope and who would fund this just cant see it being practical.

I already said it wasn't a good situation. It's not.
As for who will pay for it & do it - many people in HH already are. Not the authorities, I hasten to add, but my vet neuters for free up to 5 females per week (street dogs) I take to him. And others off his own back.
Dogchance neuter (for free) 80 or 90 dogs a month (twice their original goal - they are doing a fantastic job!). And they also do cats.
We pay for neutering of street dogs and I know of many people who neuter, vaccinate & otherwise care for the dogs in their communities or local temples, out of their own pockets.

[DawnHRD]

Hi Kendo,
Just wondering if you have ever seen those pickups with cages on the back driving around the villages asking people if there are any available dogs, I've seen them on the outskirts of Khon Kaen. What I've been told by the Thais is that they give you a plastic bowl or a bamboo,grass hat or fish catcher(somethime along those lines) in return for whisking away the errant dog. Then they tell me it's off to the chinese sausage factory. Not sure if it's true or whether I'm being hood winked. If you live in a village, then tell me what happens there.

Yes, it does happen. I'm not sure that they go to Chinese sausage factories, per se, but they do go to be eaten. It's usually, but not always, a plastic bucket that is exchanged for the dog. I'm sure Richard will confirm this.

[kendo]

Dawn, you say no such thing as humane distruction i would much rather see an animal get put to sleep with leathal injection than someone poisoning the poor dog with costic soda and it having a slow painfull death with its stomach being burnt with chemicals.It's all about levels of exceptability if these dogs started to affect tourism the local authorty's would do something about it garenteed.The work that you do with dogs, good on you ! but there's a lot of dogs out there that nobody wants or care's about and are a real problem.

[Spitfire]

Must say DawnHRD,
It's a kind of wierd solution to the problem when there is actually a pest control service in most cities and considering how many problems and attacks there are(not to mention the kids with scared faces). Does this confusion and inaction come from the fact that "you know who" is a dog lover? Just a thought, maybe I'm wrong, but an interesting possibility.

[richard]

I've posted this before but I'll repeat it

My wife brought up the family dogs and fed them. They became very friendly. She had a favourite called Spike. All of them were friendly and would play with the kids but one day Spike bit someone and then another one

He became very shy and hid under the outside table

some time later some men from the family who he had bittern turned up to take him away. I said no I would take care of the matter and put him down humanly. They went away after releasing him but he still cowered under the table

Next they came back in force and dragged him on his back into a pickup and when I asked my wife what they were going to do, In tears she said they will take him out into the bush and release him to survive amongst the snakes and wild pigs

Later found he was hacked to death and sold to a local noodle vendor

Next day they back with big smiles and gave my wife a plastic bucket

I was powerless and the wife too

When they decide to kill they are very brutal. A single well aimed shot would sort it but they insist on machete approach

i've experienced (and been part of many kills, which is an insult if you refuse) it many times and maybe I'm getting blaisy about it but I'm powerless to do anything and have to abide by their customs and culture